Why isn't TTS more popular than vassal for organized play? TTS seems to have much better graphics and smoother play than Vassal, but everyone seems to use Vassal instead... Both have their glitches for sure, but one seems like a simpler and more intuitive engine,

Thanks

Vassal is simple, no frills, Xwing. It is what a lot of players are looking for if they are taking the time to play xwing on a computer anyways. I know for me personally, TTS's attempt to make the tabletop experience as "real" as possible becomes more of a distraction than anything. Vassal is super easy to find a game and it has first mover advantage over TTS, as well as being absolutely 100% free. And, Mu0n and his team are incredibly fast at implementing the latest elements of the game.

Until TTS or vassal gives players a reason to change, those who are on vassal will stick with it. And with vassal recently implementing squad auto spawn and auto bump, I don't foresee it losing its players to TTS any time soon.

Don't let the graphics fool you, VASSAL is far more precisely done than the mess that is TTS. Graphics are the only thing TTS has going for it, especially now that VASSAL handles collisions.

Vassal was before it and players don't like change. TTS is better but the new changes to Vassal makes it close.

The only thing TTS used to do objectively better than Vassal was automatic bumping but NO LONGER!

Subjectively it's better in that it's 3d and pretty, but that really doesn't actually sell it to me personally, especially as it takes more computer resources and isn't free.

Edit: Keep in mind that this info is from this March and a lot has happened for both TTS and Vassal since. Edit over.

I started playing with TTS, and rather liked it, but then I also started using Vassal and to me, the differences are these:

• TTS requires a buy-in, but I buy games all the time (and during Steam sales it's cheaper than one X-Wing ship) so that's not really an issue
• TTS is shiny and 3D, looks much more like an actual table, and skills (spatial foretelling of where maneuver templates will take me etc.) gained on actual tables transfer much more easily to TTS than they do to Vassal
• TTS requires me to move around 3D space constantly, which looks good but is much less efficient than a simple overhead view
• TTS is much more resource hungry - I play on a notebook, and the fan runs high all the time with TTS, while it barely moves with Vassal, and as a consequence I have to think about my battery with TTS but not with Vassal
• TTS requires me to use a mouse - without a mouse, all the clicking-and-dragging-and-whatnot won't work as easily, and I can't use both mouse buttons at the same time with the touchpad (which is necessary for some pick-up-and-move-and-place things with TTS)
• Dice rolls in TTS are more annoying to handle, with all the negatives of dice on a table (bumping stuff, rolling off the table, active dice rolling through inactive ones and then having a mess, etc.), and just require me to press two keys in Vassal
• Setup is much faster in Vassal - this used to be true already when squads had to be manually prepared for actual games, because TTS requires me to assign dials to ships, but is even more true by leaps and bounds now that I can just paste a squad builder link in Vassal
• TTS has issues with OS X; namely, TLS connections don't run properly because OS X blocks horribly insecure ones from happening at all, and the Unity game engine underlying TTS attempts to use just these horribly insecure connections - I built a hack that works around the issue, but it's a) horrible, b) annoying to use and c) annoying to have to use (the fault here lies at Unity, but I don't really care)
• TTS has 3D models, which is awesome, except when it doesn't, which is jarring - is there meanwhile a model for the Protectorate Starfighter?

Now, that's all client-side things, and they slightly push me towards Vassal already. But what Vassal also has going for it:

• TTS is much slower in getting out updates of all sorts - which I mainly attribute to mu0n and his awesome work on the Vassal side of things
• Vassal has an active community, multiple games going on at all times, the possibility to just jump in and get a pickup game and generally a more vibrant feel to it
• Vassal has a very awesome league, with more possibilities for playing games and an active Slack chat channel

There used to be autobumping as a prime selling point for TTS; I really missed that after the move to Vassal, which is why I helped with fixing it. The other prime selling point TTS has going for it (IMHO) is semi-automatic maneuvering after dial reveals, which is why to plan to help fix that, too.

So all in all, TTS is much shinier and easier to get into at first, but Vassal is vastly more efficient and has the community that TTS lacks.

I played on TTS exclusively at first and liked it much better than Vassal. Meanwhile, I've uninstalled TTS altogether.

Don't forget Vassal has interface that looks like bunch of windows thrown together by teenager coder....And that - the interface was the main reason why i swiched to TTS. It is just most terrible UI i ever saw and i worked in many projects that used tools with cramped interface.

3D in fact makes it more immersive, if you want top view just move that camera to it - perfectly possible.

Rolling dice - ok it is a bit too real in TTS.

TTS is cheap. But it ain't free. When you aren't sure if you will like or use a bit of software, free can be infinitely more tempting than even a $5 buy-in. Downloaded and messed around with Vassal probably three separate times before I actually started playing games online.

There are two costs, the actual price of TTS and the cost of learning a new system. These two scare many off, it doesn't matter than both costs are very low the fact they exist will keep many for switching.

TTS is easier but if you pay close attention, its incredibly imprecise. It's great for casual play, but that's about it. For competitive practice or list honing, it has to be Vassal or on the table. I'd say Vassal is, in fact, more precise than actual gameplay. And this is from a guy that really dislikes playing on Vassal but I'm on TTS all the time. Engine712 on Steam, if you see me online let's play a game!

90% of the reason is the fact that Vassal is free and TTS isn't. Another 5% because Vassal was first and people don't like change.

The last 5% is everything else.

I wouldn't call Vassal more efficient. I was basically unable to actually efficiently play the game on vassal until i got a dual monitor set up, because there were simply too many windows that i needed to have open every turn.

Additionally, automatic movement has been a thing in TTS for a good while, as has automatic list building. Dice throwing is only a problem for those that don't know that tapping R while dice are highlighted auto-rolls them in place. Furthermore, once ships have entered automatic movement, outside influence cannot move them, i.e. rolled dice, tokens, etc. Anything that Vassal has, TTS does or has had for longer than Vassal did(automatic list building and auto bumping comes to mind) TTS X-Wing had that for many months before Vassal did

I suspect there are only 2 real reasons why not many use TTS:

1. Costs money. This one i get, sorta. No need to spend money when you don't have to.

2. They're just used to Vassal. Which isn't really an excuse imo. TTS is far more intuitive to pick up, since you only have the one window, with an always accessable notebook showing you inputs for movement, range and arcs, etc. Plus, you also have to consider how freaking annoying it is for newer players who just can't play Vassal but can play TTS: Because TTS does not hide card abilities, and Vassal does. I don't have the ability of every card in the damage deck memorized. So i need to look up the ability every time i or my opponent takes a crit in Vassal? That's not efficient at all.

Vassal expects a high level of competency with the game that TTS does not. So i really don't get why Vassal is the more popular pick.

TTS simulator is fine, i guess; but for me at least, getting that right perspective is a pain in the ding dong. Games take like twice as long as they need to, I feel.

9 minutes ago, Razgriz25thinf said:

I wouldn't call Vassal more efficient. I was basically unable to actually efficiently play the game on vassal until i got a dual monitor set up, because there were simply too many windows that i needed to have open every turn.

I've never had a problem with Vassal on a single widescreen monitor. But then, I cut my horrible-UI-having-software teeth on GIMP...

Also, TTS is a platform for thousands of games, not just X-Wing.

2 minutes ago, costi said:

Also, TTS is a platform for thousands of games, not just X-Wing.

So's Vassal...

I made the decision to go with TTS not Vassal because I feel like the 3D element means that anything I about the spatial awareness of what moves/distances look like will transfer much better to/from the tabletop.

It's fiddly as **** to learn if you don't have somebody patient but the shortcuts and add-ons are largely all there when you're shown how to use them. Playing with a mic definitely speeds things up a whole lot.

There are more than 2 real reasons. As someone who has both and sticks with Vassal, there are a few reasons I stick with it.

First, Vassal is much better for me when I travel with my notebook in performance and ease of use. Tabletop Simulator is not easy to use with a mousepad and dismally performing laptop.

Second, Vassal updates much faster, the team is fantastic at getting new ships and pilots into the module before they are even released.

Third, the Vassal league is a huge, active league with promotion and relegation, and even prize support. I haven't heard or seen anything similar on TTS.

Aside from the league the player pool at any given time on Vassal is pretty large, it's not hard to log in at nearly any time and find someone to play a game with.

Finally, though familiarity plays a part Vassal is much easier than TTS for me to set up and get started with a game, especially now with squad auto-spawning.

TTS isn't bad, and it's undoubtedly prettier, but a prettier interface isn't enough for me to use it instead of vassal.

Weirdly, for me personally, prettier is actually a bad thing. If I'm playing a boardgame on a PC I actively DISlike games that go out of their way to look like they're representing the tabletop - if I'm playing on a PC I want to clear all the clutter and guff out the way and just keep the actual mechanics visible. Heck, for the most part I'd be perfectly happy without the card images.

I recognise that I'm somewhat unusual in that however.

You might want to look at the TTS version of Armada, it has full scripting, ships move on their own, have built in range finders, etc. It is kind of neat to see it all play out.

I've gotta say if there was one thing that Vassal could do that woudl improve matters it's confirm whether ships are in range/arc and at what range they are if so - the amount of times I've had a ship too close to call and had to roll for it...

1 hour ago, Razgriz25thinf said:

2. They're just used to Vassal. Which isn't really an excuse imo.

Sure it is. Why learn a whole new system or program when the one you know now does everything you need? Unless there's some serious advantage to switching, doing so is wasted time and effort.

Also the user base is going to have a huge impact, it doesn't matter if VTT is better (which is debatable) if you can't find a game on it.

I actually prefer vassals bunch of windows because its better than trying to navigate the 3d space.

58 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

I've gotta say if there was one thing that Vassal could do that woudl improve matters it's confirm whether ships are in range/arc and at what range they are if so - the amount of times I've had a ship too close to call and had to roll for it...

This is on the docket of things to implement. It might even be next.

I tried Vassal over a year ago, without help, seemed like a lot of fuss to get it working. If I didn't have a toddler I would have more time to screw around with it.

I tried TTS six or nine months ago, right when automated movement was implemented. It was a lot easier to pick up. I get a game once in a while when time allows.

A guy at my FLGS got into Vassal this past year and is doing leagues; he offered to help me learn it but we haven't both been free at the same time.