I've just read the new creature rules. The biggest change is that Creatures cannot store Lore anymore and must immediately use their abilities whenever they roll the required Lore Symbols. This generates more questions though:

1} What about Giant Spider's Poison attack. It needs 2 Lore AND a hit to be used. Spider rolls only 2 dice. If it rolls 2 Lore it cannot activate Poison and it cannot store it for later. This needs clarifications.

1b} Moreover, what version of Giant Spider's Poison should we use, the original or the optional rule? I'm only asking because I see fundamental rules changes so anything is questionable.

2} Let's take a creature that has 2 abilities. One that needs 1 Lore and 1 that needs 2 Lore. If I roll 2 Lore can I choose to activate the first one and not the second?

2b} What happens if I roll 3 Lore? Can I activate BOTH abilities?

3} "Creatures cannot store Lore that they roll in the Player's Lore goblet". If they roll a lot more Lore than what is needed for their ability then the excess Lore is lost?

Richard? We need your insight!

I don't intend the post to have an overly critical tone, as ultimately I'm fine with playing using the changes, just as I'm fine using Battle Savvy, but seems like the nuances of creatures are being dumped for simplicity's sake and some of the richness of play will be sacrificed. As pointed out above, Poison (which was already a rarely used ability) is now near impossible to pull off. By removing the ability to store lore on the creature or in the goblet, as well as have control over whether or not to exercise particular abilities (let alone the confusion this will cause with how to apply these rules for creatures with multiple abilities) dampens the decision making in a game that I very much enjoy because of the high level of decisions involved - many subtleties to consider in BattleLore, now fewer with the creatures.

I didn't like it when the creature trample rules went from alternating critical checks with blocking unit figure loses, so I also don't like going from blocking units having the possibility of losing multiple figures to trampling if the creature involved passes the requisite "1d for each unretreated hex" critical check. Blocking creatrues has gone from a highly risky proposition, to a reasonably risky proposition, to a viable proposition - maybe that is okay

I do like the rule changes to the unit that destroys the creature - that seems a fun addition (plus, more decisions ).

And, Fragmaster, they way I read the rule changes, the answer to 2 is that you must activate the higher ability and 2b seems to be that you must use both abilities, though certainly a gray area for both instances.

I agree in everything with Toddrew on this one. Being a slight bit off-topic (as it is usual for me, geeeez (>_>)), a long time ago a fellow member of BL community, Constant-Whiner, expressed himself against the fragmentation of the game. I wonder if, instead of emendating the rules as often as happened lately, couldn't be a viable option to propose a set of different styles of game, a-la "Medieval Lore". That could range from "completely optional rules", to "heroic rules", to "Tournament Rules", to "Competitive Rules".... BL is all about options, it seems, and I'm fine with options, but every now and then people need a common ground, without falling in the dreaded "Ed. X.5 Rules" tunnel...

I like your thoughts Affro.

Other games that provide "optional" rules or "advanced" rules are kind of nice as they lay out various formats for the game. (Although I get some goofy people that will only play the "official" rules and won't ever try the "advanced" or "optional" rules. Lamos!!)

Based on some of the commentary here I think I might try the new rules - but I will still probably play with the original "Official" rules as well.

The new rules state:

"Lore rolled by a Creature may never be held by the creature to be used later, or stored in a player´s Lore Goblet."

Contradictory the dragon rules ( which are quite new also) say:

"Lore rolled by a Dragon during a melee is placed in the owner´s Lore Goblet."

For dragons are some kind of creatures - what rule is in charge here? The dragon rule or the general creature rule?

Beside I ´m skeptical about this part of the new rules. Weakening the earth elemental might be Ok (although I liked it the way it was), but this is going to make the green spider near to useless, and poison, as mentioned before, completely unlikely to ever happen. In fact those are the only two creatures to be affected (and limited) by this rule, making a balance shift in favor to troll and giant, wherefore I dont ´t see any necessity.

We have to wait fot the official answers to my questions from Richard Borg.

Regarding Dragons I believe that the specific rules for any creature are the ones to follow when they contradict the basic rules. So Dragons collect Lore to the goblet and can activate their ability whenever the player wants by spending his Lore.

Well like others have mentioned, it seems that we do need to know how the Spider's poison ability works. I know there is a new "spider" card around but I suspect, like the Dragon cards, it has one attack..Web. (that seems to be the case looking at the Dragon cards in the Dragon rules). And as such, I guessing the Poison ability is now dead for the Spider but alive for Dragons (those b*stards..they killed Kenny...sorry, had to say that!!)

Like Todd, it seems the "kill creature" rewards are better than the old way of just getting 1 lore token. Gives the defeating troop some more tactical advantage (even if briefly - i.e. one shot deal).

Hopefully Richard can also add some insight. Since the Dragon rules pertain to the original rules of BL for creatures, does that mean that maybe the BL rulebook will be updated when FFG produces their own version of BL?? If so (and if the rules are significant), maybe there might be some way for the old owners of BL to get the updated rulebook (Without having to purchase the complete box!!)

Lastly for Richard, for us people who like to have a complete set of helper cards, will the Troll (think it is included in the Creature set if memory serves - if so, nevermind it) card as well as the 2 other updated cards be released on actual cards??

Cab

jurge said:

Well since the new rules INCLUDE Dragons (note the last page and having a list of all creatures), one would surmise that maybe someone missed the item in Dragons rulebook. But good catch though...again, another item for Richard to address.

Also even the Dragon rulebook (first page) refers to the updated creature rules (see 2nd column on 1st page). My guess is that someone "oops" on the Dragon rulebook on this item!!

Cab

To be honest, I like this sentence most:

Welcome to the Creatures update, and enjoy!

What I dislike completely is the lack of storing lore - it adds another random component into the game, not speaking about the impossibility for the spider to use it's poison.

Imho it's better to ignore the update or to have it rewritten by someone who already played some games of Battlelore.

Caboose said:

Hi Cab

No "oops", the Summary cards for units have always given troops some special advantage, the same holds true for Dragons.

Dragons can place Lore they roll in Melee in the player's Lore goblet, other not so intelligent creatures do not have this option.

In regard to our Green Banner Spider with both a 1 Lore and 2 Lore Special Power.

Green Banner Spider rolls 1 Lore, the unit that is being attacked is caught in a web.

Green Banner Spider rolls 2 Lore, the unit that is being attacked is caught in a web AND is also poisoned. No hit is required to poison.

If you wish, make a note on your Giant Spider summary card.

Two Lore - The unit is caught in a web and it is also Poisoned. Place poison token on unit and each Lore rolled against the unit or each Lore rolled by the unit will score one hit on the unit. To remove a poison token the unit must be free of the web, and owner must pay 2 Lore.

Our upgraded Green Banner Spider may not be as powerful as its big sister the Blue Widow Spider (coming in the Creature Pack) but our upgraded Green Banner Spider on a double Lore roll isn't bad.

Enjoy!

Richard Borg

Nice, very nice, you effectively get 3 Lores worth of effects, not likely to happen all that often but nice none the less.

Chris

As a way to differentiate between creatures, I think I can come to like the changes (variety is always a good thing)... Again, I wonder if the same changes could not be presented as an optional format, or a Scenario variable, like "Animal Creatures" VS "Intelligent Creatures" (I feel the same about "Battle Savvy", instead suggested unofficialy as a new official way to play the game).

IMHO, the last clarification about the Green Spider takes the route to highlight the "random" nature of creatures power (well, of a class of creatures, at least); nothing wrong with this choice, it seems that the "all or nothing" impact on the battlefield will remain their trademark in opposition to the lenghty, customizable, semi-planned build up of Heroes (so much for the two single most powerful kinds of troop in Battlelore).

Still, seeing how Dragons differ from standard Creature by the "double critic" and the "level of intelligence" rules I'd like some way of tinkering with Creature's ability and level to show up one day in a form or another (embedded in a publication or perhaps as a freebie on the site): sure it seems possibile to me to have a "Creature's sheet", now... What's wrong with a Shelob-like Green Spider general, intelligent and hit only on a double critical, commanding his undisciplined force against an all human battle savvy army?

I know, I can do this even without any official statement ( )!...

Richard Borg said:

Richard, thank you for the answers. I still have only one question:

If I somehow {with card effects} a creature rolls more Lore than its abilities cost what happens? The extra Lore is lost?

Let's take the Green Spider again. If {with the help of card effects} the Spider attacks with 3 dice and rolls 3 Lore, it can use Web AND Poison and still have 1 Lore unused. What happens to that Lore?

It's abit of a stretch but it can happen and it's good to have all the possibilities covered!

Also could it be possible to have a downloadable PDF card with the new Green Spider card abilities? Please?

FragMaster said:

Our Green Banner Spider that rolls 3 or 4 Lore, would not be of any use to our Spider. The extra Lore rolled is not place in the player's Lore Goblet.

The Blue Widow Spider will roll 3 dice in battle, but has the same special powers as the Green Banner Spider, so that will also create some new and interesting challenges, but it will work the same with the extra Lore rolled.

Until an updated Green Spider card is issued by Fantasy Flight, I would like you to please just update the Green Banner Spider's summary card.

Thanks!

Richard Borg

Richard Borg said:

OK. We'll play a few scenarios today and see how it goes. Thank you!

Richard Borg said:

Richard, for the Blue Widow spider which rolls 3 lore, would ONE of those lore count as a HIT then?? (based on the above description) Or is the Lore really "lost" and doesn't count for anything??

Cab

On a side note, now that we have Dragons, Creatures, Troll, Spiders (and possibly the Promo figures), adventures with multiple Creatures in a battle become more frequently a viable option: it's even possible think an Epic Reluctant Allies extreme situations with 12 levels of Creatures in play (that would be interesting)... I wonder if the simplification made by the updated rules want to take in account this and we'll have the chance too see some really strange adventures in the times to come...

Caboose said:

I am not Richard, but yes, the lore would be a hit.

toddrew said:

Darn - if you were Richard, I would question why we haven't met!!

*

*obligatory text making this post long enough to post