At a small, local tournament over the weekend, one of my opponents had Ten Numb in his list, with Mangler and Fire Control. During our first combat exchange, he fired the Mangler at my Ryad (who had focus and evade tokens), and after modifying his dice (including rolling one hit to a crit), he had two hits and a crit. I rolled two evades and a blank. I pulled the evade token from Ryad, added it to the two evades that I rolled, and THOUGHT that I had canceled all of his hits. My opponent then tells me that Ten's pilot ability states that you cannot cancel one of his crits. His exact words were, "One of his crits always gets through." Admittedly, I have only been playing X Wing since the middle of last year, and I never play Rebels, so I wasn't familiar with Ten's ability. Skeptically, I took him at his word that Ten does not allow you to cancel one of his crits, so I put the evade token back on Ryad, which was still sitting next to the two evade dice rolls. My opponent then said that I could not put back the evade token. When I challenged him on why I shouldn't be allowed to put it back, being that I was essentially "over-evading" given Ten's ability, he turned into "that guy" - and explained how he was "doing me a favor" by showing me the rules because "at a major tournament, people aren't going to let me put it back." I enjoy the fun of X Wing way too much to argue over a token, so I respected his "ruling", and spent the evade - even though in my mind it didn't seem right that I had to....

Then I went home and read Ten's ability....

"When attacking, 1 of your crit results cannot be canceled by defense dice "

Returning to the above scenario, could I not have canceled the first two hits with the evade rolls and used the evade token to cancel the crit?

And my second question, and I understand that the answers may be totally subjective, but is there clear language or precedent on a player making a mistake and spending a token, unnecessarily? I completely understand that if I enter a tournament, I am responsible for understanding the rules, but I feel like in my case, it was my opponent that didn't know the mechanics of his own pilot, and subsequently, I was put at a disadvantage.

And to make things more complicated and ironic...he was the TO for the event.

Appreciate any insight from the community on this...

Nope.

Evade tokens used to work that way but with the TFA rules update, they now add an evade result to your die roll, which can/can't cancel hit/crit results just like any other evade result.

As regards spending a token incorrectly there's no formal language that I know of (and over-evading can be a legitimate strategy when, for instance, Crack Shot is involved), and he's probably within the rules to insist, but he was kind of a jerk to do so in this situation. It's easy to make a mistake and there are no formal take-backs in this game, but in the situation where you didn't understand the rules, he's in violation of Wheaton's Law to then explain them to you and refuse to let you correct your mistake, even if he's within the RAW of the game.

You used to be able to cancel it with an evade token. But about a year ago they changed the effect of the evade token to add an evade dice result, so it cannot be canceled by the token anymore. He was 100% correct in his ruling, and 100% a d*(& for forcing you to spend the token.

I am not sure how casual or formal the tournament you went to was. But normally in tournament play, anything you do is final if it is possible.

If you were not aware of how Ten Numb worked, you should have asked your opponent to explain before you started the game. After all his squad is public knowledge. He can't guess that you don't know the pilot ability.

Personally I have never been in a tournament, but when I play casually with my friends and family, we still play by tournament rules, because it helps you learn that your choices are final if they are possible. No matter the consequence.

You are allowed to "over-evade" deliberately. This can be important if your opponent is using Crack Shot, which can cancel an evade result. Deliberately overspending an evade to get one more than needed will make Crack Shot useless for that attack. There may be another case where it would be useful but I can't think of one off hand. So in that respect yes it is "possible" to spend an extra evade beyond what's needed but there's no reason too in the scenario you describe since an evade token is considered adding an additional die with an evade result and Ten gets one crit through no matter what.

Now strictly speaking, once you declare an action that's possible there are no take backs and it's final. So by strict tournament rules once you say "I'll spend my evade token" it's spent and there's no getting it back. Having said that though, if I was playing Ten and someone was like "I have two evades rolled and an evade token so I'll spend the token to evade it all" and then I would have to remind them that they can't evade the crit and they would probably say "Oh right I forgot, so I won't spend the evade then" then TECHNICALLY since they had declared it I could hold them to it as your opponent did and force them to spend the token. For my part though that's just being a finnicky jerk on the rules because it's OBVIOUS that no one would want to spend the token in that case. So yes everything your opponent told you was correct within the rules but it was overly strict in my opinion.

Once upon a time it WAS possible to use Evade TOKENS to cancel a crit from Ten or even a hit from an Autoblaster weapon where they say they can't be cancelled by Defense dice. Then the winds changed such that spending that token now gives you an Evade result that is treated like any other defense dice you rolled thus they do not stop Ten or Autoblasters anymore. This one is pretty clear although I can see where the changed ruling and limited exposure could be confusing.

I have mixed feeling about your "other" issue in this scenario. Technically you could spend the Evade although it wasn't going to have any effect what so ever and once spent it is gone. I do take issue with your opponent taking advantage of the situation and allowing you to do that before shoving his fist in your face and laughing as you've now wasted the token which will not do what you "knew" (or more accurately thought) it should do. People like to talk about the WaAC (Win at ALL Costs) players and this seems like one of those situations; as I see it he should have reminded you the first time that your Evade token still could not stop Ten's crit from overcoming Defense before you were committed to spending the token and if he didn't then you should have been allowed the "take back" for attempting to perform an illegal activity unintentionally. Not getting to stop that crit was a lesson regardless of what happened to Evade token; a bigger "lesson" is that the other person is at least somewhat of a jerk for saying that you need to be punished even more.

I really appreciate everyone's explanations, especially the clarity on what an evade token actually does.

My biggest mistake, as one person pointed out, was not asking for a better explanation at the start of the match. I am usually good about that, but not in this case. Lesson learned going forward.

This is the second time I have played this opponent, and he is a continuous violator of Wheaton's Law. The first time we played, and we had to determine initiative (we were both at 100) I asked him if he wanted to roll, or call hits/blanks. He said, "no,no,no...That's NOT how you determine intitiative"...Then dug out his rule book to have me read the proper way, according to the rules.

Again... Thanks for reading my case, and providing great guidance everyone.

3 hours ago, sharrrp said:

and then I would have to remind them that they can't evade the crit and they would probably say "Oh right I forgot, so I won't spend the evade then" then TECHNICALLY since they had declared it I could hold them to it as your opponent did and force them to spend the token.

It's really not a matter of "technically". If you declare something you have to do it, there are no take backs in this game, unless the other guy wants to allow it. There is no question per the tournament rules that the other guy could do exactly what he did.

3 hours ago, sharrrp said:

For my part though that's just being a finnicky jerk on the rules because it's OBVIOUS that no one would want to spend the token in that case.

While I agree in essence, and I wouldn't likely hold someone to it if they didn't know it wouldn't help like the OP did, it's up to me to help the other guy play the game. If they make a mistake I have no requirement to point out the mistake and let them fix it... It's not even a question of good sportsmanship most times, unless as in this case it was because someone didn't understand the rules.

43 minutes ago, TheDarkFather said:

This is the second time I have played this opponent, and he is a continuous violator of Wheaton's Law. The first time we played, and we had to determine initiative (we were both at 100) I asked him if he wanted to roll, or call hits/blanks. He said, "no,no,no...That's NOT how you determine intitiative"...Then dug out his rule book to have me read the proper way, according to the rules.

...wow. Per current rules, you had the EXACT correct setup for determining initiative, per the current Rules Reference document (Page 12 under Initiative). Even if it WEREN'T correct, though, anything that provides a consistently 50-50 odds split should be acceptable to any other player.

If you're going to play a strict rules lawyer like that, you've gotta be prepared to "objection!" everything he tries to finagle you on. That, or be prepared to rules lawyer other minutiae back at him. Suggestions:

• "No, you can't just remove your model if it impedes other ships, you need to raise or lower its pegs per the rules. Don't have any extra pegs with you? Pity."
• "You can't use target locks as squad markers. You need to use Squad ID numbers as per the tournament guidelines. You don't have them with you? Pity."
• "I'm sorry, but you flipped over two dials at once. Per rules, you need to complete one activation at a time. Since you flipped a second dial, you forfeit your perform action step."

Avoid playing with that rules nerd if you can.

If I had to play against him, I think I'd just fly around the edge of the board until time was called, or just fly off the mat. No way I'd give him the satisfaction of rules lawyering in that manner to me. His joy comes from "teaching" you? Well, teach him that you enjoy not giving him the chance to feel superior by being so petty.

Sorry. I'm usually not a petty person, but if someone's going to suck the fun out of playing with plastic little ships just to be smug then I'm going to take the low road too.

The opponent in question is a fixture at my local game shop. I will undoubtedly draw him again in our tournament and league play, which I am very much okay with. As I mentioned before, X Wing is way too much fun, and having played in various locales around my state, I can honestly say that the vast majority of the players out there are NOT this way.

From the situation I experienced, and the great advice given to me on this forum, I know that I just need to keep reading, practicing, and most importantly, keep having fun. Its too great of a game to think otherwise.

2 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

If you're going to play a strict rules lawyer like that, you've gotta be prepared to "objection!" everything he tries to finagle you on. That, or be prepared to rules lawyer other minutiae back at him. Suggestions:

• "No, you can't just remove your model if it impedes other ships, you need to raise or lower its pegs per the rules. Don't have any extra pegs with you? Pity."
• "You can't use target locks as squad markers. You need to use Squad ID numbers as per the tournament guidelines. You don't have them with you? Pity."
• "I'm sorry, but you flipped over two dials at once. Per rules, you need to complete one activation at a time. Since you flipped a second dial, you forfeit your perform action step."

Its funny you mention this, as I left out the fact that he moved his 3 Z-95s all at the same time, then applied all of their actions, which I knew for a fact was not according to the rules. This is one of his "go-to" lists. Guess next time he will have to play it by the book.

Hey guys, just in FYI I am "that guy" yes I was the official of the tournament. As darkfarther had said and I remember this very well. It did happen almost like he had said. As for the token he had his finger on it and slid it to the evade dice. As I know he is a fairly new player to this game. I told him of Ten numbs ability of where you cannot cancel one of his Kabooms. I also told him not to remove that token and to leave it on the table since he technically didn't spend it. What I told him was that in the compare results stage of the round, you'd be wasting that token from Ten Numbs ability. He asked me what it was, told him and showed him my card. I told him I wasn't trying to sound like "that guy", and for him to leave that token on table. He said to me that he was going to spend it anyways, because of what I had said. I did tell him to just leave it it's fine, but he insisted on spending said token anyway.

Yes he is right about my Z95s, I did flip them over at the same time because they were the same pilot skill. So I was wrong about that.

I really was trying to help him with the game rules and not be a D#&). That game we played in was a bye round. I was just filling in because we had an odd number of players and I wanted to help people get their "money's" worth. No matter how many games I had won or lost my games didn't count for anything other then a bi-round. He got the win and half of my points for that round. So no matter what the outcome was of that game he was getting a win regardless.

I guess, if I did come off sounding like "that guy", I have been in the army for just over 18 years,two deployments. I guess I can sound kind of crass and not know, I did apologise to him if I did. So once again I do apologise if I did sound like "that guy" that wasn't what I was trying to do.

2 hours ago, TheDarkFather said:

The opponent in question is a fixture at my local game shop. I will undoubtedly draw him again in our tournament and league play, which I am very much okay with. As I mentioned before, X Wing is way too much fun, and having played in various locales around my state, I can honestly say that the vast majority of the players out there are NOT this way. This guy sticks out like sore thumb in our local group, for his win-at-all-cost approach, as well as his braggart mentality. It is what it is. No changing people like that...

From the situation I experienced, and the great advice given to me on this forum, I know that I just need to keep reading, practicing, and most importantly, keep having fun. Its too great of a game to think otherwise.

Tell him to read this thread. I have no problem telling him he sounds like an obnoxious ass, with a poisonous attitude.

I did read this thread and I already responded to it, thank you.

Win at all costs players can be a pain in the rear end to play. There's no disputing that. The one thing they are good for, is forcing you to sharpen up your own game.

I play every game in a very casual manner, because I play to have fun. Take backs are definitely allowed when a player makes an uniformed mistake. I'm not there to be "that guy". I'd like to think I'm there to help other, newer players to learn the game. And when I'm playing more experienced players, there's always something to be learned. Fortunately, the guys that play in my area are pretty laid back and we all share the same goal of having a laugh and enjoying the game, regardless of winning or losing.

11 hours ago, Ywingpilot45 said:

Hey guys, just in FYI I am "that guy" yes I was the official of the tournament. As darkfarther had said and I remember this very well. It did happen almost like he had said. As for the token he had his finger on it and slid it to the evade dice. As I know he is a fairly new player to this game. I told him of Ten numbs ability of where you cannot cancel one of his Kabooms. I also told him not to remove that token and to leave it on the table since he technically didn't spend it. What I told him was that in the compare results stage of the round, you'd be wasting that token from Ten Numbs ability. He asked me what it was, told him and showed him my card. I told him I wasn't trying to sound like "that guy", and for him to leave that token on table. He said to me that he was going to spend it anyways, because of what I had said. I did tell him to just leave it it's fine, but he insisted on spending said token anyway.

Yes he is right about my Z95s, I did flip them over at the same time because they were the same pilot skill. So I was wrong about that.

I really was trying to help him with the game rules and not be a D#&). That game we played in was a bye round. I was just filling in because we had an odd number of players and I wanted to help people get their "money's" worth. No matter how many games I had won or lost my games didn't count for anything other then a bi-round. He got the win and half of my points for that round. So no matter what the outcome was of that game he was getting a win regardless.

I guess, if I did come off sounding like "that guy", I have been in the army for just over 18 years,two deployments. I guess I can sound kind of crass and not know, I did apologise to him if I did. So once again I do apologise if I did sound like "that guy" that wasn't what I was trying to do.

This was a good apology, nicely done.

YwingPilot45 and I had a good discussion about this thread privately, and I think we both recognize what went wrong and what went right at our tournament Sunday. He is a skilled player and I am appreciative of the competition and knowledge he brings to our local game store. No worries, or hard feelings, going forward in our matches.

Here's to life lessons gifted by little plastic ships!

Fly casual everyone...

@Ywingpilot45

There are always two sides to every tale. I want to apologize for what I said without having understood the situation fully. It seems everything that happened in your game was fair and done in the spirit of good will. I will strive to do as much here and in my own circle. You seem to be good TO, and a good person. Thank you for your service as well.

Humbly,

Joel

20 hours ago, Ywingpilot45 said:

Hey guys, just in FYI I am "that guy" yes I was the official of the tournament. As darkfarther had said and I remember this very well. It did happen almost like he had said. As for the token he had his finger on it and slid it to the evade dice. As I know he is a fairly new player to this game. I told him of Ten numbs ability of where you cannot cancel one of his Kabooms. I also told him not to remove that token and to leave it on the table since he technically didn't spend it. What I told him was that in the compare results stage of the round, you'd be wasting that token from Ten Numbs ability. He asked me what it was, told him and showed him my card. I told him I wasn't trying to sound like "that guy", and for him to leave that token on table. He said to me that he was going to spend it anyways, because of what I had said. I did tell him to just leave it it's fine, but he insisted on spending said token anyway.

...

The bolded part is certainly NOT how I interpreted the original post. That certainly sounds like how I figure such a situation should be handled. Now I still will stand behind my earlier statements but with the realization that it seems they are talking about someone else who does/would play as I interpreted the original post.

Now getting the italic part is something I wish players would do more of although in this case it is just confirming that I will make a bad, but legal, play. I believe it should also happen when there is "no play" when their could be and that choice of inaction despite action being possible should have a definite acknowledgement.