The idea is to give opponents their range bonus back when defending against range 3 secondary weapon turrets (only existing one are Twin laser turrets so everything else remain unaffected).

In order not to boost aces, the wording could be similar to Lightweight frame:

If you have 2 or less agility (defense die) the range 3 bonus is given (also Talonbane would like that).

This would be no card nerf, it would rather be an overall adaption of the rules without big disadvantages for anyone.

Thoughts?

I think it would be better to nerf the TLT and design every future turrets in a balanced way, rather than creating a general arbitrary exception from the secondary weapon rules.

Id be down for the change.

I'm still in the camp that they simply can't spend tokens out of arc, but gaining the range bonus works too. This only effects TLT really, which is the only major issue in turrets face, and is broad enough to allow for future design scope for turrets that do hit R3.

Simple solutions are generally the most effective.

While I don't agree with the OP's proposed wording, the basic idea of turret slot secondary weapons being subject to at least long range bonuses seems solid.

I could see the logic in the R3 and R1 bonuses for Turrets and Cannons. The TLT already has a R1 hole so it wouldn't get any boost. Never really understood why cannons are more accurate than primary lasers.

Just now, Jetfire said:

I could see the logic in the R3 and R1 bonuses for Turrets and Cannons. The TLT already has a R1 hole so it wouldn't get any boost. Never really understood why cannons are more accurate than primary lasers.

I'm a little concerned about giving turrets the R1 bonus. Dorsal, ion, and blaster would be throwing 4 dice at half their range increment. And then we have the whole problem of a three dice autoblaster Turret potentially snuffing out TIE fighters and Interceptors in one shot with no defense.

7 minutes ago, Jetfire said:

I could see the logic in the R3 and R1 bonuses for Turrets and Cannons. The TLT already has a R1 hole so it wouldn't get any boost. Never really understood why cannons are more accurate than primary lasers.

I don't see cannons vs primaries as accuracy I would say Cannons are more powerful, so don't diminish their effect with range (I'm not even going down the lasers in a vacuum, space dust and all that jazz rabbit hole... leave it out of this Sci-Fi game....).

If you give the range 1 bonus to Turrets EVERYONE is going to find a way to fly Autobalster turrets, 3 dice attack that you can't cancel...... brutal. But...... I'd be in favour of giving the range 3 bonus to the defender, the range 1 attacker bonus might be to much..

Edit; ^^ What Sabine said, we posted at the same time..

I think turrets are fun and interesting as long as they're not spammed. I think they were always intended to be used as a support ability, or as your one big hitter, but not both and not everything .

The rule change I propose for tournament play is: One turret (PWT or equipped turret upgrade) per 75 squad points .

And if this brings swarms back into competition, good. If it makes swarms too effective: Limit all generic pilot cards to a maximum of 2-of-a-kind per 75 squad points.

Pointless and unnecessary.

Just make TLTs unique.

EDIT: Was just reminded by the venerable @FTS Gecko that HLC is a cannon, not a turret.

34 minutes ago, Jetfire said:

I could see the logic in the R3 and R1 bonuses for Turrets and Cannons. The TLT already has a R1 hole so it wouldn't get any boost. Never really understood why cannons are more accurate than primary lasers.

Because they're aftermarket cannons and wouldn't be added on if they were worse at what they do than primary guns? I.E an ion cannon is added to ionise enemies. A heavy laser cannon is added on to pulverise enemies. edit - Also on this point, please don't nerf HLC, dash will cry!

30 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I'm a little concerned about giving turrets the R1 bonus. Dorsal, ion, and blaster would be throwing 4 dice at half their range increment. And then we have the whole problem of a three dice autoblaster Turret potentially snuffing out TIE fighters and Interceptors in one shot with no defense.

Autoblaster cannon already does that, and it's not broken; it might be better to have a range 3 bonus only - something like "when defending against a secondary weapon at range 3, increase green dice by 1" (or just 'add range bonus'). That said, nerfing secondary weapons at range 3 is not very good for torpedoes/missiles; something might have to be done there.

24 minutes ago, DagobahDave said:

I think turrets are fun and interesting as long as they're not spammed. I think they were always intended to be used as a support ability, or as your one big hitter, but not both and not everything .

The rule change I propose for tournament play is: One turret (PWT or equipped turret upgrade) per 75 squad points .

And if this brings swarms back into competition, good. If it makes swarms too effective: Limit all generic pilot cards to a maximum of 2-of-a-kind per 75 squad points.

Pointless, ineffective, and salt-inspired. Not liking quad TLT is no reason to ban them.

I have been arguing the defensive range bonuses for turret upgrades for a long time. Simple fix that does not require a card Errata.

If I were king for a day, I would add an additional bonus defense die on all out-of arc turrets and make Autothrusters starviper only.

But, I am not.

6 minutes ago, balindamood said:

I have been arguing the defensive range bonuses for turret upgrades for a long time. Simple fix that does not require a card Errata.

If I were king for a day, I would add an additional bonus defense die on all out-of arc turrets and make Autothrusters starviper only.

But, I am not.

Thank God for that.

6 minutes ago, balindamood said:

I have been arguing the defensive range bonuses for turret upgrades for a long time. Simple fix that does not require a card Errata.

If I were king for a day, I would add an additional bonus defense die on all out-of arc turrets and make Autothrusters starviper only.

But, I am not.

Why? What problem exists that you are trying to fix and why would this fix it?

I said the same thing about both cannon and turrets when there were no range 3 turret secondary weapons. However that will not come into existent.

Simply giving range 3 bonus against secondary turrets would be a good start. Then see what TLT's do for a few months and re-evaluate.

All though I have gotten used to it, it always struck me as odd that you'd get an extra defense die at range 3 from primary weapons, but not secondary weapons. Distance is distance.

7 minutes ago, MrParsons said:

Why? What problem exists that you are trying to fix and why would this fix it?

The problem goes back to turrets in general and the need for Autothrusters. I think there is a group of us that feels that there needs to be some sort of incentive for turret ships to get their targets in arc. I think you see the current designers attempting to do just that with newer releases. At the same time, you have ships that need Autothrusters that cannot have it, AND you have a starviper that needs something. Just fix it all at once. This is how I would do it. I am not saying it is a good idea, but it is the best I have.

2 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

Simply giving range 3 bonus against secondary turrets would be a good start. Then see what TLT's do for a few months and re-evaluate.

Range 3 bonus against any out-of-arc attacks? Means that torpedoes and such are ok, as are BTL Y-Wings, cannons, etc.

4 minutes ago, FlyingToaster said:

Range 3 bonus against any out-of-arc attacks? Means that torpedoes and such are ok, as are BTL Y-Wings, cannons, etc.

Nerf Nera. She is OP.

Just now, StriderZessei said:

The OP's suggestion would be a horrific nerf to Dash and other HLC users.

How exactly would the OP's suggestion of removing the secondary weapon rule from turrets (a distinct type of upgrade) be a "horrific nerf to Dash and other HLC users"?

It would nerf TLT's and have precisely ZERO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on HLC users as HLCS are NOT TURRET UPGRADES.

3 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

How exactly would the OP's suggestion of removing the secondary weapon rule from turrets (a distinct type of upgrade) be a "horrific nerf to Dash and other HLC users"?

It would nerf TLT's and have precisely ZERO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on HLC users as HLCS are NOT TURRET UPGRADES.

I misread the post. All I saw was 'remove secondary weapon range rule'.

Also, caps are a privilege, not a right.

Please let this happen FFG. I am so sick of TLT and HLC Dash. Turrets are bad enough, but at least give ships a chance at dodging them at range 3.

Just now, StriderZessei said:

I misread the post. All I saw was 'remove secondary weapon range rule'.

Also, caps are a privilege, not a right.

If only you'd spent the time reading the OP that you spent on that witty retort.