So I've been seeing and reading a lot of articles featuring the "downfall" of large ships due to the flourishing MSU/Squadron meta, and I'm wondering if part of it isn't the habits that we've sunk into for building our large ships. It strikes me that, though still visible, redirects are not as prevalent as they may have been in the Ackbar meta of days past (see also: before I played) We do however, have tools that could push our large ships, specifically ISDs into new prevalence.

(You may begin spooning down salt, I am simply spitballing here and have actually zero competitive experience.)

Specifically, while considering a build I did some careful reading and identified the following upgrades to apply to an ISD-II to make it a squad-killing machine:

-Agent Kallus: adding an addition (black!) die against the bountiful number of named squadrons ups your damage output significantly

-H9 Turbolasers: With two blue dice, you are guaranteed to be able to roll an accuracy against an ace to lock down their defenses, (It's also helpful against flotillas!)

-Reinforced Blast Doors: with the standard of damage output changing from "raw single-attack firepower" to "thousand cuts from bombers and TRCs" the ability to simply have three extra hull seems far more beneficial than the ability to keep a brace or redirect from being locked down.

-Gunnery Team:...You're still playing an ISD, let's be serious here.

I had considered this for and ISD-I, but lacking the Defensive Retro and the build being reliant on Kallus I wasn't so keen, however it could certainly still work.

This allows your ISD to not only throw devastating dice at ships, but also at squadrons while being survivable to their return fire. From here, follow it up with small, inexpensive activation boosters, Raider-1s with OE, Goz Floats. Instigator made an appearance in the build I was devising.

I figured the admiral of choice should be Motti simply to force your opponent to chew that much more meat, and making sure you have a balanced fighter contingent to tie down.

Anyhow, just some food for thought on the new age of Armada that we find ourself in. Any thoughts? Or experience with similar builds.

You have made good points, but I think your premise that latge ships are out is wrong.

Someone will no doubt link the stats from Smitty's regional round up, and if I remember correctly, ISDs did very well.

5 minutes ago, TheCallum said:

You have made good points, but I think your premise that latge ships are out is wrong.

Someone will no doubt link the stats from Smitty's regional round up, and if I remember correctly, ISDs did very well.

It probably is, I'm just doing some theory-talk for those that think ISDs are out

Ok then.

Well for your build, I still think you need Leading Shots. Its still pretty important for keeping the red dice under control in that key front arc shot, as well as helping with your blues vs Squadrons.

Apart from that, the XI7s/ECMs vs H9/RBD is a coin flip thing. You'll do great vs flotillas, but any MC80s will tear you apart when you can't brace.

So the one thing I've always said about ISD2s is that in nearly every case, leading shots is the wrong upgrade. It's not a bad upgrade, and for some players it will work. But it's not the optimal upgrade.

That upgrade is SW7s.

On an ISD, the SW7s turn every facing into "2+ damage plus red dice" when targeting ships. That front arc of course is "4+ damage plus red dice" and if you have any other means of increasing their reliability it turns that front from being merely dangerous to truly horrifying. Want a minimum of 3 damage out your front at any target? Concentrate Fire an additional blue, and let them spend all the Braces they want.

This is also a key element of how to make the Devastator title work. Use those tokens to add damage instead of dice, and the title suddenly makes loads of sense with a potential minimum of 8 damage from the front arc.

Disagreed on SW7s>Leading Shots. Leading Shots helps reroll the red dice which can be fickle but also allows for more customization of your blue dice. If you really need an accuracy (like versus a flotilla or when you need to lock down one specific defense token), it helps with that. If you really only care about damage, it rerolls blank reds for more damage and accuracy blues for more damage. It's just all-around more useful with larger dice pools than SW7s.

10 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

Disagreed on SW7s>Leading Shots. Leading Shots helps reroll the red dice which can be fickle but also allows for more customization of your blue dice. If you really need an accuracy (like versus a flotilla or when you need to lock down one specific defense token), it helps with that. If you really only care about damage, it rerolls blank reds for more damage and accuracy blues for more damage. It's just all-around more useful with larger dice pools than SW7s.

Except that Imperials have 3 different Commanders capable of improving red dice (Tarkin, Vader and Screed).

Yes, the excepting rare instance where you attack a flotilla and have no Accuracy results happens. But not as often as rolling several blanks and accuracy results across your pool.

SW7s trades improved reliability for your whole pool for guaranteeing half your die results at medium range and closer, and doesn't prevent you from improving the other half by other means.

Just now, thecactusman17 said:

Except that Imperials have 3 different Commanders capable of improving red dice (Tarkin, Vader and Screed)

Vader I grant, but Vader doesn't really want SW7s or Leading Shots. He takes care of the dice reliability on his own (which is good because he's crazy expensive so being able to drop some upgrades helps pay for him).

Tarkin is not a great commander for improving red dice. Using Tarkin for concentrate fire tokens on an ISD is not a cost-effective use for a 38 point commander.

Screed can remove a blank dice to flip another red dice to a critical but he's also not great on ISDs as they don't have access to powerful crit effects like ordnance upgrade ships do. He's nowhere near as flexible or effective as Leading Shots and both effects cost you a die to use.

1 minute ago, Snipafist said:

Vader I grant, but Vader doesn't really want SW7s or Leading Shots. He takes care of the dice reliability on his own (which is good because he's crazy expensive so being able to drop some upgrades helps pay for him).

Tarkin is not a great commander for improving red dice. Using Tarkin for concentrate fire tokens on an ISD is not a cost-effective use for a 38 point commander.

Screed can remove a blank dice to flip another red dice to a critical but he's also not great on ISDs as they don't have access to powerful crit effects like ordnance upgrade ships do. He's nowhere near as flexible or effective as Leading Shots and both effects cost you a die to use.

I also feel like Screed is not giving you anything beneficial against squadrons, which is, ultimately, what this build concept is about. Perhaps for a couple Raiders with Flachette Torps guarding your flanks though.

I'm a lover of leading shot, but I could see SW7s working well with Vader. You could also pair up SW7 with veteran gunner to let you reroll all those reds if you get a bad result..... Personally I will just stick with my four point leading shots and a cheap admiral..but I can see other options.

I like SW-7s in certain circumstances.

But leading shots for 4 points is nearly an autoinclude for me on any non-Vader ISD-II. It just gives you so much reliability.

I would take leading shots over GT.

Because I'm insane like that.

1 minute ago, Alzer said:

I also feel like Screed is not giving you anything beneficial against squadrons, which is, ultimately, what this build concept is about. Perhaps for a couple Raiders with Flachette Torps guarding your flanks though.

I think you're playing more to an ISD's strengths by upgrading its ability to wipe several small ships across a few activations. Gunnery Team, Leading Shots, and then XI7s(anti-CR90/MC30/Gladiator) or H9s(anti-flotilla/Raider/Nebulon-B) depending. You can get some use from Kallus and Avenger (Avenger works against squadrons) but you're going to have a hard time killing your 140ish points cost against squadrons but not much trouble doing that against smaller ships when used well.

Raider and TIE support are playing more to their strengths against squadrons while supporting an ISD that's looking to mulch ships.

When I hear tales of ISD woe, I can't help but think of the games I've seen where players try to drive the ISD right down the middle of the enemy fleet and then are astounded when it gets destroyed. Anything shoved into the middle of an enemy fleet without much support is going to get destroyed. I play Ozzel MSU pretty competitively and I still get trouble from ISDs and other large ships when they're navigated cautiously to try to shut down my "safe landing" options. When they're piloted recklessly, I gobble them up as they sail right into a trap.

That makes sense. I don't think I could actually build a list without ample squadron support. I was trying to create something that still punches ships hard (H9s seem pretty good for that) while handling squadrons efficiently as well. Would simply adding in leading shots allow such for an ISD?

Does anyone have any experience with a similar build though? Even just using Kallus on an ISD in general? He's a pretty cheap upgrade to allow the flexibility against squadrons, and with some good positioning you can get a large number of squads in that front arc.

In truth an ISD is only as good as the rest of the fleet and how you play it. I've always loved a very Spartan ISD one in a high activation ozzel fleet, I used it as the anvil for the Demolisher hammer..... With Demolisher getting last first, then the ISD doing the same as Demo lines up on its next target.....

ISD I, SFO, Relentless. And Jonus.

Thats it. The ISD needs to be in the right place at the right time whilst still supporting its squads with activations. Put it in the right place and everything will go well.

If you know you're fighting a no squadron list or at least will only have anti fighter squadrons then your no squadron ISD list is probably fine. However in my opinion you always need a strong contingent of anti fighter squadrons if you're going dual ISD or you run the high risk of being chewed apart by Y-Wings or B-Wings.

6 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

ISD I, SFO, Relentless. And Jonus.

Thats it. The ISD needs to be in the right place at the right time whilst still supporting its squads with activations. Put it in the right place and everything will go well.

"And Jonus" Is about to become my tag line now that I've finally picked up the CC box.

24 minutes ago, Forresto said:

If you know you're fighting a no squadron list or at least will only have anti fighter squadrons then your no squadron ISD list is probably fine. However in my opinion you always need a strong contingent of anti fighter squadrons if you're going dual ISD or you run the high risk of being chewed apart by Y-Wings or B-Wings.

No squadron is not really the point of the exercise. Simply trying to see what can be done to deal with massed-squadron lists by manipulating an ISD build to capably take down fighter wings. It could certainly be a boon to double-ISD lists though.

I'm typically a Rebel player but now I think I'm going to go Imperial for awhile and I'll take that ISD challenge. I will fly an ISD list for the next few months and I will work on making it shine. As a Rebel player there are going to be several habits I am going to change but I will scratch that ISD itch I've been having.

8 minutes ago, Beatty said:

I'm typically a Rebel player but now I think I'm going to go Imperial for awhile and I'll take that ISD challenge. I will fly an ISD list for the next few months and I will work on making it shine. As a Rebel player there are going to be several habits I am going to change but I will scratch that ISD itch I've been having.

I can pass you a near perfect Konstantine ISD list if you want to solve two problems at once. He us viable dammit.

8 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

I can pass you a near perfect Konstantine ISD list if you want to solve two problems at once. He us viable dammit.

I might take you up on that.

17 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

I can pass you a near perfect Konstantine ISD list if you want to solve two problems at once. He us viable dammit.

I would be ok with receiving a copy of that as well.

31 minutes ago, Alzer said:

I would be ok with receiving a copy of that as well.

Specifically Beatty because of the tough meta he plays in regularly. Thats the test and refinement the list needs. I had considered talking to Ard about it.

The ISD-I with Jerry and gunnery teams is pretty effective anti-MSU. Go at speed 1 with a token and you have an enormous threat range on a maneuver command. The ISD-I can often one hit a small ship if the ISD is well equipped. You just also have to balance your activations and squadron game. You want to take objectives like fire lanes (guaranteed points for imperials), station assault (to force them to be in a specific region). Blue objectives are the hardest here, but there are still some good ones depending on the construction of your list. Basically you want a small objective and to wait the engage out. The enemy can't plan their ships as well when the ISD can be anywhere the turn after.