I never run an ISD-II without Gunnery Team, as I think it's necessary on that particular variant.

Of course, we know that a ship with Gunnery Team cannot benefit from the Advanced Gunnery objective.

Why not give big ships some more love, and allow them to use the AG objective despite taking Gunnery Team?

The trade off: Gunnery Team's effect is nullified, and once you take AG, you can no longer target 2 ships with the same hull zone.

It seems like a fair trade off, given that you've invested the 7 points on the upgrade.

Thoughts?

This was the way it worked until wave 2 errata came out and ruined our ISD fun!

They should Errata it back! I'm gonna start selling hats that say "Make ISD's Great Again!"

All I'm hearing is a way for ISDs to have their Gunnery Team cake and eat it too, while making MC80s not as useful.

That's the trade off OF advanced gunnery, that you have to let your opponent pick it and you may not get the bonus. If you WANT, put advanced Gunnery in your list and make your other 2 objectives just as awful. That's the best way to do it.

Is there actually errata that says you MUST follow gunnery team over advanced gunnery?

Because doesn't it say in the rules all upgrades are a may, so couldn't you just choose to not use the upgrade?

Just now, Gadgetron said:

Is there actually errata that says you MUST follow gunnery team over advanced gunnery?

Because doesn't it say in the rules all upgrades are a may, so couldn't you just choose to not use the upgrade?

Nope, FAQ says Gunnery Team and the CANT on it overrules the Advanced Gunnery CAN.

2 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Nope, FAQ says Gunnery Team and the CANT on it overrules the Advanced Gunnery CAN.

Huh.... That's REALLY stupid.

2 hours ago, cynanbloodbane said:

This was the way it worked until wave 2 errata came out and ruined our ISD fun!

Not true.

The golden rule that CANNOT overules was always true.

This cannot be erata'd without changing one of the base rules of the game.

If CANNOT is not mandatory then I choose to double arc with Ackbar, afterall its only a CANNOT that I can choose to ignore.

It makes Advanced Gunnery worth it as an objective. Look at it from a Rebel perspective. You can't take Gunnery Team naturally on the MC80 (because with Ackbar, that's pretty busted, no lie). So Rebels put it in their list to give the MC80 an opportunity to do damage from the same arc, fundamentally breaking the rules of the game there. If an ISD can both have Gunnery Team on it and Advanced Gunnery, why is there any downside to taking the objective? Either you take it, and my ISD can fire twice at the same ship, or you don't take it, and I can.... still fire twice out of the same zone, so I've got a very similar effect as the objective for no downside to me. You're either breaking the rules of the game with the objective or with the Gunnery Team, but you shouldn't get a Break the Rules from the card and then break the rules of the card from the objective. It wasnt balanced.

By putting that caveat of Can't outrules Can, it means that if you WANT advanced gunnery on the ship, you need to be willing to risk not having it.

Go ahead and make it so you can shoot two targets for your ISD and pick my advanced gunnery. Defiance Ackbar will still drop 18 damage on you and you still only get one shot back cause of mah huge side arc.

5 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Not true.

The golden rule that CANNOT overules was always true.

This cannot be erata'd without changing one of the base rules of the game.

If CANNOT is not mandatory then I choose to double arc with Ackbar, afterall its only a CANNOT that I can choose to ignore.

Right.

I was just lobbying for an Advanced Gunnery exception to the rule-- an extremely narrow errata.

1 minute ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

Right.

I was just lobbying for an Advanced Gunnery exception to the rule-- an extremely narrow errata.

How would you write an exception?

Remember tax codes have tiny exceptions and everyone gets really annoyed by them. Its a slippery slope

5 minutes ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

Right.

I was just lobbying for an Advanced Gunnery exception to the rule-- an extremely narrow errata.

They already ruled on this though. Why would they go back and change it?

IMO, you're better off taking Flight Controllers and AG so you can push squads for a better alpha strike, and have a good objective. Or take another ship that wants AG if you have GT on the ISD.

Like Gink and geek have said, this can/cannot rule is a fundamental rule. You can't just change it on a whim.

13 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

How would you write an exception?

Remember tax codes have tiny exceptions and everyone gets really annoyed by them. Its a slippery slope

Advanced Gunnery:

"A ship equipped with Gunnery Team may resolve the Advanced Gunnery effect, but it may not resolve both effects. With the exception of Advanced Gunnery, a 'cannot' effect overrides a 'can' effect."

How's this?

1 minute ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

Advanced Gunnery:

"A ship equipped with Gunnery Team may resolve the Advanced Gunnery effect, but it may not resolve both effects. With the exception of Advanced Gunnery, a 'cannot' effect overrides a 'can' effect."

How's this?

So I can add 2 red dice to the front shot of an Ackbar Assault frigate during advanced gunnery?

5 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

So I can add 2 red dice to the front shot of an Ackbar Assault frigate during advanced gunnery?

Why wouldn't that proposal address the issue you just raised? Just curious.

7 minutes ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

Why wouldn't that proposal address the issue you just raised? Just curious.

You said that "cannot" does not apply diring advanced gunnery objective. So I am ignoring all uses of cannot. Instigator gets massively nerfed by that errata during advanced gunnery.

7 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

You said that "cannot" does not apply diring advanced gunnery objective. So I am ignoring all uses of cannot. Instigator gets massively nerfed by that errata during advanced gunnery.

Not sure I follow why you would ignore all uses of cannot when the proposed wording makes it so that you cannot do that. Maybe someone else can elaborate.

25 minutes ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

With the exception of Advanced Gunnery, a 'cannot' effect overrides a 'can' effect."

3 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Right.

This is the part that forbids you from ignoring uses of cannot in all other contexts, thus keeping intact the fundamental rule.

6 minutes ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

Not sure I follow why you would ignore all uses of cannot when the proposed wording makes it so that you cannot do that. Maybe someone else can elaborate.

I think he is pointing out a "timing" issue. With AG in play, it cancels out all instances of the cannot vs can rule. A global effect if you will so cannot never prevents something.

So with AG, Slaved Turrets let's you get another die, but still allows a second attack.

I'm sure you mean AG effects only the objective ship. I think Gink is saying it works on every ship.

7 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

I think he is pointing out a "timing" issue. With AG in play, it cancels out all instances of the cannot vs can rule. A global effect if you will so cannot never prevents something.

So with AG, Slaved Turrets let's you get another die, but still allows a second attack.

I'm sure you mean AG effects only the objective ship. I think Gink is saying it works on every ship.

Yeah, it only applies to the objective ship.

"A ship equipped with Gunnery Team may resolve the Advanced Gunnery effect, but it may not resolve both effects."

5 minutes ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

Yeah, it only applies to the objective ship.

"A ship equipped with Gunnery Team may resolve the Advanced Gunnery effect, but it may not resolve both effects."

Idk man, Gink speaks in riddles sometimes and I have difficulty figuring out what he means. Only he can tell you.

I just don't get the "Make ISD Great Again" argument. Since when are they not great? It's true they can't take on a whole fleet by themselves and need support but that is true for all the ships in the game. Some of the best lists on the Imperial side almost always includes an ISD.

So without telling me about how you can't run a 2 ISD list without support (which you can't run a 2 MC80 list without support) why are ISD's bad? Hell, why don't you consider it one of the best ships in the game? (Are people looking for a ship that compensates for their lack of skill? A win button?)

7 minutes ago, Beatty said:

I just don't get the "Make ISD Great Again" argument. Since when are they not great? It's true they can't take on a whole fleet by themselves and need support but that is true for all the ships in the game. Some of the best lists on the Imperial side almost always includes an ISD.

So without telling me about how you can't run a 2 ISD list without support (which you can't run a 2 MC80 list without support) why are ISD's bad? Hell, why don't you consider it one of the best ships in the game? (Are people looking for a ship that compensates for their lack of skill? A win button?)

Do you really need to start that one again? I'm not seeing anyone complaining about the viability of big ships in this thread.

---

I think in this context people are looking for an easy red pick for their GT ISD-2.

But guys, FFG isn't going to give it to you.

In fact, not too long ago they FAQed Advanced Gunnery the EXACT OTHER WAY.

So move along, you won't get your wish fulfilled.