Hi all,

I was wondering why the Troll/Giant Slayer career have only 4 skills, compared to other basic careers which have 5. (Except the Initiate / Apprentice Wizard, which have 7 skills)

And, regarding the Initiate and Apprentice wizard, why do they have 7 skills available? I can understand that they have access to specific skills for theirs spells/blessings, but this training require dedication, so why should they have access to more choices than the other careers?

Btw, nothing, in term of game balance, justify this, and they don't get any "advantage" to balance that.

More than that, if I understood well, Zealot and Flagellant can "equip" insanity card(s) as talent, but the insanity still produce it's effect. They can "buy" insanity card as talent at character creation, but this will give them a side effect (The insanity card effect) that other career doesn't have. Why don't they have a little something to balance that? They could state that slotted insanity card doesn't produce the insanity effect (But it could be rolepayed... )

Some people would say that no game balance is perfect, that these are very little disadvantages, but anyway, I was wondering why these small differences.

Thanks,

Ghor²

Ghorghor said:

You can get an insanity for free. You don't need to purchase it (though you can). As such, its like a free Talent and balanced IMO

Skywalker said:

Except absolutely none of the insanties has a positive effect.

CM : (Zealot/Flagellant only) : So you assume that the insanity effect is balanced with the effect granted by the career and the fact the beginning insanity is free? I had to check the different insanity cards, but, as I mentioned, it seems strange that only a handful of careers seems a bit unbalanced. It would have been easy to even everything.

Here are the small changes I've done :

- I granted Observation as a complementary skill to the Slayer careers (Any other idea? A better skill?)

- I will state that the slotted insanity card doesn't produce its technical disadvantage but must be roleplayed. However, I'll not give it for free, the player has to buy it. (BTW, where did you read that the insanity is free? I can't remember this detail)

- I will surely remove a skill or two from the Initiate / Apprentice wizard skill list

Any comment?

Ghor²

CMtheGM said:

True, but you get the positive effect of the Zealot's Insanity Card without spending an advance. That's pretty cool.

Ghorghor said:

Yeah, keep all the wizard skills they need them to function. These are not skills per se that the charatcer is getting; they're only options they have access to. If you feel the need to balance this (although I think you're using a very narrow system oriented idea of balance) then have some people generally dislike the wizard for consorting with daemons and being stuck up. Have them uncooperative and antagonistic or even worse.

Priests are different, coz not only do they get a lot of skill options they also get a lot of respect and implicit authority from the people. If you want to balance this then I'd suggest playing up their moral responsibility and devotion to their god and his strictures.

But if you're really worried about balance then the spells that wizards and priests get are much more imbalancing than a couple of skill options. The WFRP setting is flexible and interesting enough for you to be able to deal with this however you like through actual play, though, and really I think your concerns are unfounded.

You also have to consider what advances are possible for the different careers. I don't have the cards available right now but I find it likely that the Initiate/Apprentice has a lot more skill career advances to use than the Slayer. Reducing the number of career skills will thus make those advance slots partly redundant (well you can get specializations). Also, the priest/wizard careers have a drawback in that they have to spend advances in 2 skills to become better at their main task while a troll slayer only has to buy Weapon skill. The reason why they get 7 skill is then, as you write yourself, that they need the two "casting" skills in addition to the normal customization that all careers get. Then again, it's not like most Initiates/Apprentices will use their advances to buy skills, they are far more likely to buy more spells.

The trollslayer getting 4 skills is perfectly in order in my opinion. Roleplayingwise a slayer is completely focused on his martial/physical abilities, and will thus not have time for any skills that do not contribute to making him able to take on a greater doom. "Balance"-wise you also have to consider that slayers are always dwarfs, thus they get a fifth skill from their racial. And in any case why would any trollslayer spend advances on skills? I can understand getting 4+2 skill at generation for a slayer but I don't think I'd ever spend any more advances on getting additional skills after this (well I would of course buy extra training in the already trained skills).

I really don't think balance is meaningful in a roleplaying game like WHFRP. It is only meaningful in games where you can put one single quantifying figure on how good a character is (like mmorpgs or more combat-focused rpgs). E.g. the Trollslayer will be horrendously more powerful than a starting initiate in a battle (just due to the available skills and primary abilities), will you then grant Weapon skill to the initiate just to balance out this inequality?

Does it really matter whether a career has 4, 5 or 7 skills available? There is plenty of things a player can use advance points on and she can only train a skill once per rank anyway.

Do careers have to be balanced? In my opinion it is good they are almost balanced (and not like WFRP v1), but the important thing is the fun they bring to the play and the potential benefits to the party's pool of options. It is great to have careers like zealot and rat catcher which have distinctive characteristics.

I don’t think it matters that some careers have more skills than others, they are after all only the skills that you can chose to develop at the in career cost. The more combat focused careers such as the Troll Slayer have other things to spend their advances on, extra wounds and the like.

On the Zealot career it is nice to have this option; do you really have to be obsessed by if it is balanced? While I would not necessary pick it as a starting career I could well see me taking a character in this direction if he picks up a couple of insanities during play. It allows you to get some positive benefits from your insanities and gives some good roleplay opportunities.

Maybe (Surely?) you're right, it doesn't really matters.

Anyway, I don't think it would change a lot to give a Troll/Giant Slayer a fifth skill available and it would seems more balanced to me. (Maybe I'm too focused on balance... )

I don't have any Zealot or Flagellant in my gaming group but maybe one player will pick it up as a later career, to make some use of insanity gained. I'll think about it at this time if it happens.

Thanks for all your comments.

Ghor²

I haven't messed with the Trollslayer, as I consider him to be a depth-less one-trick pony anyways (sounds harsh, but true).

I houseruled that the Zealot get's one starting insanity for free.

jh

Even if the Zealot is not the starting career?

While the Insanity Card is exhausted to produce the fortune tokens. It is not in play. Giving you a break from that insanity. Any other insanities of course are in play always. Keep it exhausted as much as possible.

For those who enjoy warhammer roleplay over the years, and editions. How unbalanced it was actually created alot of appeal in the game. The way the setting created balance, and roleplaying created balance over "just stats and rules comparisons" If you consider the background and roleplaying, you can "balance" or "unbalance" any career character in the game.

Most warhammer players when asked, hate games that focus on mechanical/meta game stuff and balance. which is why they enjoy warhammer in the first place. This new edition does however appear to be the most "balanced" and metagamed version. This has only ruined my appeal for the game actually. Tho there is still alot going for the game in other areas that holds my interest.

Ghorghor said:

I dont' think that will ever be an issue, but sure, what the heck.

jh

If I remember well, I read somewhere that the insanity still produce it's effect, event if exhausted. Maybe in the FAQ or the forum, can't remember.

Regarding Warhammer v1 & v2, it was clearly unbalanced, and player usually followed the same career path (Ending witch hunter, knight errant, champion, assassin and some other to maximize their stats, because other careers offer nothing to them). It was the part I didn't like in the previous edition and that I don't want to recreate here. Which is why, maybe, I try to have the most balanced possible career so the player will clearly choose for career "sex-appeal"/roleplaying experience not only for career bonuses.

It's my point of view, as an old Warhammer player/GM (I'm growing soooo old! ) and I can understand it's not the point of view of everybody out here...

@Emirikol : Because...how can you explain you gain an insanity by switching to zealot? Starting character can justify by previous experience, before play. Character gaining an insanity out from nowhere is harder to explain. You will surely reply that in practice, you don't switch career in the blink of an eye, but the way I see the zealot is that the insanity is mandatory to become one... fanaticism lead to madness, madness to the zealot career... my point of view, of course! I always try to keep a logical explanation for everything when I GM a game (Except for D&D4 where I assume players are in a MMO and level up in a blink of an eye! )

Ghor²