12 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:Accurate assuming the target isnt rocking ECM's. In which case accuracy isnt everything.
He said ISD I
However, I will bit further. If you are assuming ecm, then 4pts to increase avg dmg by 0.75 braced to 0.37 is ABSOLUTELY PITIFUL.
33 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:He said ISD I
However, I will bit further. If you are assuming ecm, then 4pts to increase avg dmg by 0.75 braced to 0.37 is ABSOLUTELY PITIFUL.
Tua/ECM's is a common enough addition, although I'll admit I missed that. Really I just wanted to make the accuracy joke.
41 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:He said ISD I
However, I will bit further. If you are assuming ecm, then 4pts to increase avg dmg by 0.75 braced to 0.37 is ABSOLUTELY PITIFUL.
Wait, what? I said ISD1 because that's what you compare these to. Same number of dice != same quality ship, or even shot...
10 hours ago, Green Knight said:Ackbar Star Destroyers want to shoot at you at all ranges, with 3 red, 2 blue, and 3 black. 73 pts (and Admiral cost) for a torpedo with the front arc of an ISD-I.
True, that is kind of like Nb-B at long range being the same firepower as a Victory Star Destroyer. However outside of Akbar the upgrade slots are somewhat at a loss. It is a very situational upgrade set up.
Then there is also the issue of the squadron game, With only 1 squadron value and 1 anti squadron die, squadrons become this ship's Achilles heel.
Edited by Marinealver1 hour ago, Marinealver said:
True, that is kind of like Nb-B at long range being the same firepower as a Victory Star Destroyer. However outside of Akbar the upgrade slots are somewhat at a loss. It is a very situational upgrade set up.
Then there is also the issue of the squadron game, With only 1 squadron value and 1 anti squadron die, squadrons become this ship's Achilles heel.
That I didn't understand. What's a Neb shooting 3 red at range the same as this? The ackbar star destroyer has the speed you get close, and the desire to be there. The neb just wants to stay at range and hope against hope it doesn't get shot in the side :-)
2 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:Wait, what? I said ISD1 because that's what you compare these to. Same number of dice != same quality ship, or even shot...
Now now, no need to get upset because the construct query you made was incepted by myself in such a way that I could host my monthly sensor teams vs ordnance experts rant...
8 hours ago, Ginkapo said:Now now, no need to get upset because the construct query you made was incepted by myself in such a way that I could host my monthly sensor teams vs ordnance experts rant...
Can you go through the numbers again? I've really noticed in tons of games I needed OE (when I had it and when I experimented without). Multiple times, which leads me to expect that OE has very high damage increase value.
1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:Can you go through the numbers again? I've really noticed in tons of games I needed OE (when I had it and when I experimented without). Multiple times, which leads me to expect that OE has very high damage increase value.
Think back. Sure at times you may have blanks in your black dice. However, did it actually make much difference to the damage applied to the ship.
If someone rolls 3 dmg against you with other ships left to activate, do you brace?
If someone rolls 5 dmg against you with other ships left to activate, do you brace.
Was there much benefit to 5 dmg rather than 3?
If you are running APTs or ACMs then the equation is different, but then at least admit APTs cost 9pts as OE is mandatory. Intel officer also makes a difference.
Its too easy to theory that higher damage is always better, the real cost is more muddled.
Just now, Ginkapo said:Think back. Sure at times you may have blanks in your black dice. However, did it actually make much difference to the damage applied to the ship.
If someone rolls 3 dmg against you with other ships left to activate, do you brace?
If someone rolls 5 dmg against you with other ships left to activate, do you brace.
Was there much benefit to 5 dmg rather than 3?
If you are running APTs or ACMs then the equation is different, but then at least admit APTs cost 9pts as OE is mandatory. Intel officer also makes a difference.
Its too easy to theory that higher damage is always better, the real cost is more muddled.
Doesn't sensor teams require spending a dice (not being able to even get higher dmg) for an acc? In a low pool like an MC30 front, this is a huge deal.
If they brace for 2 dmg, as opposed to bracing into 3 damage, that's a significant difference. First the brace is used, second its still extra damage.
Also yes, running APT really makes those extra OE blacks more relevant.
I will note killing a flotilla by blocking scatter is infinity better than spending the scatter. However, vs med and large ships, a single acc isn't going to help, in this case, forcing brace for 5->3 is much better.
Also, if you are low on firepower due to high flotillas, or high AA points invested, being able to deal damage is better.
I've definitely rolled 3 blacks and gotten 1 hit 2 blanks. Sensor teams would give me 1 hit 1 acc. (with maybe 2 blue dice from an MC30, but what if its front arc conc fire? or just a gladiator with 4 blacks, 2 hits 2blanks). The accuracy 1 hit here is worthless, whereas rerolling into an avg 2 more damage is much better. And probably forces redirect or even scatter.
I still think in a vacuum, many cases OE is far more potent. (no APT). I run a lot of Glads without APT nowadays cuz I need AA.
For ships like an ISD1 where one of the dice is black AA, OE is again, prominently useful here, over sensor teams.
Sensor teams (and weapons teams) require decent sized dice pools: Glads, Mc30s, and ISDs.
They're poor choice on Raiders.
For the cheapest useful ISD, I still think its SFO OE x17. (Although I'm really contemplating DTT or H8). Would you run something differently?
My ISD I upgrade package is;
.
The difference is: In your secondetails example the defender has already spent his brace and it is not readied for your next attacks with other ships, so for the overall strategy it may still he way better.
Also gambling is fun, if I reroll single hits with OE I hope for the lucky big hit even though I won't "gain" average damage with this.
4 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:
I still think in a vacuum, many cases OE is far more potent.
I neednt have bothered. The game isnt a vacuum. Its not about one shot, never has been.
Why did you respond to this:
11 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:Doesn't sensor teams require spending a dice (not being able to even get higher dmg) for an acc? In a low pool like an MC30 front, this is a huge deal.
If they brace for 2 dmg, as opposed to bracing into 3 damage, that's a significant difference. First the brace is used, second its still extra damage.
Also yes, running APT really makes those extra OE blacks more relevant.
I will note killing a flotilla by blocking scatter is infinity better than spending the scatter. However, vs med and large ships, a single acc isn't going to help, in this case, forcing brace for 5->3 is much better.
Also, if you are low on firepower due to high flotillas, or high AA points invested, being able to deal damage is better.
I've definitely rolled 3 blacks and gotten 1 hit 2 blanks. Sensor teams would give me 1 hit 1 acc. (with maybe 2 blue dice from an MC30, but what if its front arc conc fire? or just a gladiator with 4 blacks, 2 hits 2blanks). The accuracy 1 hit here is worthless, whereas rerolling into an avg 2 more damage is much better. And probably forces redirect or even scatter.
I still think in a vacuum, many cases OE is far more potent. (no APT). I run a lot of Glads without APT nowadays cuz I need AA.
For ships like an ISD1 where one of the dice is black AA, OE is again, prominently useful here, over sensor teams.
Sensor teams (and weapons teams) require decent sized dice pools: Glads, Mc30s, and ISDs.
They're poor choice on Raiders.
For the cheapest useful ISD, I still think its SFO OE x17. (Although I'm really contemplating DTT or H8). Would you run something differently?
With this?
6 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:I neednt have bothered. The game isnt a vacuum. Its not about one shot, never has been.
I just meant no APT.
Everything you wrote was the same logic.
In a vacuum it is more important to do more damage. If you cannot see past that, thee is no point me wasting my breath.
You don't shoot out the front arc with an Ackbar Star Destroyer...
18 hours ago, Ginkapo said:Think back. Sure at times you may have blanks in your black dice. However, did it actually make much difference to the damage applied to the ship.
If someone rolls 3 dmg against you with other ships left to activate, do you brace?
If someone rolls 5 dmg against you with other ships left to activate, do you brace.
Was there much benefit to 5 dmg rather than 3?
If you are running APTs or ACMs then the equation is different, but then at least admit APTs cost 9pts as OE is mandatory. Intel officer also makes a difference.
Its too easy to theory that higher damage is always better, the real cost is more muddled.
You asked these questions, to which I responded. And you haven't even made your reasoning. Overall, this is just coming off as pouting. And not following through with any logic whatsoever .
Maybe you've made the argument before, which is fine to be gruff about not wanting to repeat it, but this is overall just impolite.
Very disappointing.
2 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:You asked these questions, to which I responded. And you haven't even made your reasoning. Overall, this is just coming off as pouting. And not following through with any logic whatsoever .
Maybe you've made the argument before, which is fine to be gruff about not wanting to repeat it, but this is overall just impolite.
Very disappointing.
I believe its:
MC30t Expected damage (no acc) = 3 blacks @ 1ea, 2 Blue @1 ea. roughly 58% chance of 1+ blank black (37/64)
Sensors: spend the blank black die to turn a blue to Acc, block brace. 4 damage applied
OE - reroll the blank black die. get a hit raising damage to 6, but get braced to 3.
expected damage with 1 acc = 4
ST: spend 1 damage to block redirect?
OE: reroll to do 1 extra damage to side shield?
Edited by Baltanok
OE is important if you want to generate crits.
Ackbar EA+ST doesn't care about that.
The sensor team eats a blank if there is one. Good chance with dome many die rolled.
Now those are uses and explanations I could get behind. (Though, I think Ackbar AFs still want Gunnery team over Sensor Team)
Still losing 2 die faces to get the acc hurts dmg a lot. and you have to drop blue dice, so if you get two blank blacks its not that great. and also discounts the times you need the dmg and roll enough accuracies.
Ex. 1 acc, 1 blue hit, 1 black hit, 2 black blanks.
But as a super cheap MC30 single upgrade, i can see its definitely comparable,a nd better over SFO and OE.
Edited by Blail BlergYou have 3 red, 2 blue, 3 black.
So if you don't roll a native acc, you have plenty to pick from.
Funny how everyone else understands my logic implicitly.
As I said no point wasting my breath. You have assumptions stuck in your head that you wont let go off. No point discussing this till you start from scratch.
Okay, @Ginkapo .
I finally, finally got around to implementing Sensor Teams and H9's (very poorly) in my script, and it is only extremely begrudgingly that I concede that your build isn't quite the worst. There remain, of course, the tactical considerations--primarily, that yours can shoot at long range and mine can double-arc--but calling that a wash...
Yours (78 each + 38 admiral):
Rolling 3 blacks, 2 blues, and 3 reds, 100000 times.
Factors in play:
Admiral Ackbar
Enhanced Armaments
Sensor Teams
At close range
===================
6.48609 average damage.
75.06% of CR90's one-shotted.
75.06% of Raiders one-shotted.
Mine (80 each):
Rolling 3 blacks, 2 blues, and 0 reds, 100000 times.
Factors in play:
APT
H9 Turbolasers
Ordnance Experts
At close range
===================
5.50802 average damage.
63.59% of CR90's one-shotted.
63.59% of Raiders one-shotted.
Edited by Ardaedhel
Hallelujah.
Of course your double arc will increase those odds. Whilst it also decreases your escape vector options. And CF.
Much of a muchness.
Feel so vindicated.
How did APTs do so poorly?
03.20.17
The day Sensor Teams were given a fair trial