2 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Hallelujah.

Of course your double arc will increase those odds. Whilst it also decreases your escape vector options. And CF.

Much of a muchness.

Feel so vindicated.

How did APTs do so poorly?

I'll admit I'm dumbfounded, but I'm also very tired and going to bed. I expect to figure it out in the morning and retract my concession with great prejudice.

is there a reason why ackbar ones get their 2 extra red dice calculated, but double arcing normal ones don't get to add their front arc dice?

14 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

is there a reason why ackbar ones get their 2 extra red dice calculated, but double arcing normal ones don't get to add their front arc dice?

The "one-shot a corvette from point blank range" is the fairest straight-across comparison I can make. Both builds have different optimal tactical situations that they prefer: this one is roughly equally valuable and likely for both.

Assuming comparable skill, the Ackbar ships are likely to get a shot or two from long range that the APT ships are foregoing, whereas the APT is likely to have a double arc lined up.

The Ackbar build is more likely to have an incidental second shot out the other side, meaning it still gets a second arc's shot, lack of focused fire notwithstanding, somewhat mitigating the double-arc advantage.

Both ships also would prefer to have a different side arc at close on each of two one-shottable ships, depending on the matchup. In that scenario, the APT boat loses the double-arc advantage, but the Ackbar ones lose Sensor Teams on one side to the exhaust.

There are just too many scenarios to address them all, and they can get really complex really fast if you're trying out lots of different builds. This is about as close to spherical cows in space as I can get.

Trying to wrap my head around the Ackbar SD concept... do you typically take Admonition or Lando? How do you handle a Rhymerball? I don't mean to ask dumb questions but I've not played with or against the MC30 very much. I did take a 3xMC30 torpedo + TRC90 MM fleet out for a spin a couple of times in casual play against a Yavaris heavy bomber list and yeah... driving MC30s takes practice.

8 hours ago, Ken-Obi said:

Trying to wrap my head around the Ackbar SD concept... do you typically take Admonition or Lando? How do you handle a Rhymerball? I don't mean to ask dumb questions but I've not played with or against the MC30 very much. I did take a 3xMC30 torpedo + TRC90 MM fleet out for a spin a couple of times in casual play against a Yavaris heavy bomber list and yeah... driving MC30s takes practice.

I started typing a response to this then remembered....

And to undo a wrong. I shall point out here that the concept of an enhanced armament Ackbar Star Destroyer came from Mandalorian. I took the concept and ran with it adding sensor teams to make it rule the high seas.

So when is Part 2 of that article coming out @Ginkapo ?

5 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

I took the concept and ran with it adding sensor teams to make it rule the high seas.

Speaking of adding sensor teams, My regular opponent just text me and told me to look at Demolisher as Gladiator 2 with external racks and sensor teams.

After you roll 5/6 black on the side arc, you can discard one of the blanks to guarantee an accuracy with the solitary red dice. I'd dismissed gladiator 2s previously, but this isn't bad.

In a flotilla/squadron meta having as many ships on the table with 1 guaranteed accuracy and double flak dice is a must.

How come Expanded Launchers doesnt get a look in? An MC30 Torp with OE and EL comes out at 80, vs a Gink special MC30 (ST and EA) @ 78.

The EL MC30 is throwing out ten dice in a double arc, seven of them blacks with rerolls. Factor in points saved by not having to buy Ackbar (lets say for sake of argument we revert to a traditional Mothma build - so we immediately have extra survivability for our ten dice monster) and give it XI7s - thats a tasty gun ship thats easy to double arc with, and surely the stats for that beat the Ackbar mc30 torp?

@Matt Antilles What part 2?

@D503 I am sailvating at external racks...

@GammonLord expanded launchers and Mothma is more expensive than Ackbar. Also factor in the vulnerability of your points on the table.... flagship is nice and safe.

With Ackbar Star Destroyers some shield damage is done at range. Doesnt matter whether they redirect, can always park on the damaged shields. So sure you get a double arc, but Ackbar gets an easier single shot.

The difference is when x17 would be more use.

7 minutes ago, GammonLord said:

How come Expanded Launchers doesnt get a look in? An MC30 Torp with OE and EL comes out at 80, vs a Gink special MC30 (ST and EA) @ 78.

The EL MC30 is throwing out ten dice in a double arc, seven of them blacks with rerolls. Factor in points saved by not having to buy Ackbar (lets say for sake of argument we revert to a traditional Mothma build - so we immediately have extra survivability for our ten dice monster) and give it XI7s - thats a tasty gun ship thats easy to double arc with, and surely the stats for that beat the Ackbar mc30 torp?

If you are factoring double arcs the baseline torp that ard runs beats it. But as gink points out, there are mitigating factors, ease of use being foremost.

I have to say I'm still biased towards H9, OE, APT MC30s. MM makes them tough as nails, and with titles it's even harder to kill. Too many times I've seen the OE into APT kill a ship, or cripple it. And taking 2 face ups on a double arc before the normal damage is hard to deal with. The Sensor Team+Ackbar is a good combo at long range through close, but I worry about the consistency of the rolls. At least a OE can generate some hits/crits if you start low, and H9 means the damage can stick.

Both are good builds and equally viable IMO. I think it comes down to how someone wants to run their fleet instead of fighting over what load out is better.

1 hour ago, Undeadguy said:

I have to say I'm still biased towards H9, OE, APT MC30s. MM makes them tough as nails, and with titles it's even harder to kill.

Just to be clear, I'm not at all a convert to the Ackbar build. Those ships come out to be way more expensive for what you get. The APT build doesn't rely on its admiral for damage output, which means you have to account for Ackbar's cost on the Sensor Team build where you don't on the APT build. Depending how hard you're swarmin' you're looking at somewhere between 9 and 13 extra points for each of them for a small (but real) damage increase, in addition to the opportunity cost of taking a different admiral.

My concession is just that Sensor Team isn't always the worst approach.

2 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

@Matt Antilles What part 2?

I think you should write one. Expand on Part 1, more examples, etc. Show how Tycho can be used against the max bombers that are being so lamented as of late.

ExL is even harder to compare to the Ackbar ISDs, because the metric I used for comparison (close range side arc shot) isn't really fair to the ExL build; and the ExL's optimal tactical position (close range front/side double arc) is hardly an ideal comparison for the Ackbar ships.

I can compare ExL to APT, though, since both are happy with a front/side double arc:
================================
ExL + OE (80 each )

side - 5.3

Rolling 3 blacks, 2 blues, and 0 reds, 100000 times.
Factors in play:
    Ordnance Experts

At close range
===================

5.25479 average damage.
2.87658 average braced damage.

front - 5.8

Rolling 4 blacks, 1 blue, and 0 reds, 100000 times.
Factors in play:
    Expanded Launchers
    Ordnance Experts

At close range
===================

5.75481 average damage.
3.12783 average braced damage.

================================
APT + OE (72 each) :

side - 6.0

Rolling 3 blacks, 2 blues, and 0 reds, 100000 times.
Factors in play:
    APT
    Ordnance Experts

At close range
===================

82273 black crits of 100000 tries. 
0.82273 ACM/APT success rate.
6.0734 average damage.
3.68655 average braced damage.

front - 3.9

Rolling 2 blacks, 1 blues, and 0 reds, 100000 times.
Factors in play:
    APT
    Ordnance Experts

At close range
===================

68434 black crits of 100000 tries. 
0.68434 ACM/APT success rate.
3.93077 average damage.
2.53432 average braced damage.

================================

So, ExL does give more absolute throughput.

But.

1) It braces to almost identical to actually, a little worse than APT. Admittedly accuracies will modify this, but ExL's biggest advantage is in attacking larger ships, most of which will have ECM if not redundant braces, making this a pretty good measure of effectiveness.

2) Your one-shot chances against a corvette are much lower. I consider this to be a pretty critical measure of effectiveness for an MC30 build, because the ability to present an existential threat to a corvette just by placing a side arc on it, while also being able to threaten a second shot (whether another corvette or a shot you want on a different ship) is a very significant tactical boon. The printout for this one is in the spoiler to save on the already-egregious length of the post, but adding H9 to both builds, you come out with 32%/20% chance of a side/front-arc (respectively) one-shot with the ExL, vs 64% side-arc with APT.

Rolling 3 blacks, 2 blues, and 0 reds, 100000 times.
Factors in play:
    Ordnance Experts
    H9 Turbolasers

At close range
===================

4.68917 average damage.
2.5916 average braced damage.
100.0% of rolls hit accuracy target.
20.35% of CR90's one-shotted.
20.35% of Raiders one-shotted.



Rolling 4 blacks, 1 blues, and 0 reds, 100000 times.
Factors in play:
    Ordnance Experts
    H9 Turbolasers

At close range
===================

4.99674 average damage.
2.74798 average braced damage.
100.0% of rolls hit accuracy target.
32.13% of CR90's one-shotted.
32.13% of Raiders one-shotted.




Rolling 3 blacks, 2 blues, and 0 reds, 100000 times.
Factors in play:
    APT
    Ordnance Experts
    H9 Turbolasers

At close range
===================

82147 black crits of 100000 tries. 
0.82147 ACM/APT success rate.
5.50313 average damage.
3.43744 average braced damage.
100.0% of rolls hit accuracy target.
63.47% of CR90's one-shotted.
63.47% of Raiders one-shotted.


Rolling 2 blacks, 1 blues, and 0 reds, 100000 times.
Factors in play:
    APT
    Ordnance Experts
    H9 Turbolasers

At close range
===================

68407 black crits of 100000 tries. 
0.68407 ACM/APT success rate.
3.18312 average damage.
2.22991 average braced damage.
100.0% of rolls hit accuracy target.
0.0% of CR90's one-shotted.
0.0% of Raiders one-shotted.

3) The biggest advantage ExL gives you over APT is in sustained throughput against large ships... and ACM does that way better for 6 points cheaper, so you should just take that instead, if that's what you're going for.

Rolling 2 blacks, 1 blues, and 0 reds, 100000 times.
Factors in play:
    ACM
    Ordnance Experts

At close range
===================

68440 black crits of 100000 tries. 
0.6844 ACM/APT success rate.
4.62028 average damage.
3.21936 average braced damage.
24.69% of rolls hit accuracy target.
0.0% of CR90's one-shotted.
0.0% of Raiders one-shotted.
root@ArdLub-I:/mnt/multimedia/Development/SWAM# ./swam.py -oe -ac -ba 3 -bu 2 -br
Rolling 3 blacks, 2 blues, and 0 reds, 100000 times.
Factors in play:
    ACM
    Ordnance Experts

At close range
===================

82109 black crits of 100000 tries. 
0.82109 ACM/APT success rate.
6.8902 average damage.
4.50806 average braced damage.
43.58% of rolls hit accuracy target.
23.75% of CR90's one-shotted.
0.0% of Raiders one-shotted.

4 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

My concession is just that Sensor Team isn't always the worst approach.

And that was all I ever wanted.

Another example of math obfuscating the truth.

@Ardaedhel cheers for the awesome number crunching on ExL, very much appreciated!

Not sure i'll stray far from APTs for competitive stuff, but i may give ExL with Xi7s a proper whirl in the coming weeks.

I have no idea how this Gink quote box got here?

9 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

3 minutes ago, GammonLord said:

I have no idea how this Gink quote box got here?

@Ginkapo is so Insidious, even his MC30s get to throw Black Dice at Medium Range.

4 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

@Ginkapo is so Insidious, even his MC30s get to throw Black Dice at Medium Range.

Classic Be....er......Gink....

On 3/21/2017 at 11:09 PM, Drasnighta said:

@Ginkapo is so Insidious, even his MC30s get to throw Black Dice at Medium Range.

Haha. Just stumbled across. My MC30s really do these days.