@Darth Sanguis - I understand where you're coming from, but the problem with it is if you expand the game so fleets can fit in your formula (Large, Med, Small, Flotilla, plus fighters) then inevitably that means some people will use those extra points to take even more small ships, or squadrons, or whatever......which would lead to your "Diverse" fleet getting outactivated, out-squadroned, etc. Same problem still applies.

The only way to avoid what you're suggesting (without completely restructuring the game) is to mandate that fleets include a minimum number of ships from each size class....which would pretty much kill fleet diversity. Something akin to 40k's "Core Force Org" chart. And anyone who's played 40k knows all about the issues a Force Org chart has....more flamewars about this topic have occurred than Armada players could possibly imagine . You don't want to get into "Force Comp" arguments. That's one of the things I love about Armada...

25 minutes ago, Matt Antilles said:

@pt106 I think you should write an ISD commanders guide

I would read the crap out of this.

3 hours ago, Beatty said:

I will have to go back over it then because I haven't seen all his posts. But I still feel that many of the people who have issues with the game, which are still only a minority of players, would have those issues solved if they played at 500 instead of 400.

It just sounds like they really really really want to take ISD's kitted out and 400 points is just too small to do that and bring in the support the game needs.

So instead of rewriting the rules let's use the rules we already have. And if we see issues with lists in battle reports from regionals or Worlds then let's address it then. I just haven't seen any serious issues as of yet.

So I guess stay vigilant but don't say things are broken because it doesn't fit your play style.

My last iteration was a 121 pt ISD x 2 : ISD1 OE SFO x17. .... 11 points of upgrades is considered kitted out? Its the bare minimum of not getting everything defensed away against mc30s and MSU. Please do look, there are 2 ISD threads in the last month ish.

And then, the 500 pts, we worry that you can literally wipe out medium ships in one turn with squadrons. That's all. (Off the record, I think 500 pts would be great fun, I support you there).
(Beatty, I try and mean no offense to you. I'm saying that the way this is phrased starts to really imply things about other people. That is mostly a silencing tactic of "Its fine! EVERYTHING IS FINE". That's not okay.)

2 - 121pt ISDs

3 Gozantis with Comms Net + Moffy J.

Howl + 4 Ints.

Best I came up with: Down sides: still has horrible time vs 6+ MSU. has ZERO points left for a bid. Barely doesn't die to 134 rebel squadrons. -> if you "outplay" the squadron player. If they outplay you, their mass of squadrons crushes yours.

Well I will say Blail I am trying not to be "It's all fine" most of the time and you should see the flack I get for poopooing all over the SSD thread. ? I can absolutely be critical and I can say there are small issues I would like resolved, *Demolisher* Cough*, but I also am waiting on the new releases because from what I've seen when something seems like an issue FFG has been addressing it with new upgrades or ships. And honestly I think the new wave will help deal with too many Flotillas because Sloane and Boarding Parties are going to rain on that parade hard if someone has too many on the table looking like juicy morsels. And Boarding Parties may very well help me deal with Demolisher better too so I am more trying to be an optimist more than a denial fan boy.

But it's hard addressing small problems when some will take that criticism and run with it. I would just love to find a good common ground for us to be on and have fun.

Mmhmm. Let's both hope for the best on what we think would be better balance in the future. ButI think vigorous talking about the issues seems to direct FFG to consider how to elegantly FFG-style address the problem. Or in Xwing, hard-errata-nerf it for the health of the game.

Do note however, that you did make an assumption people (and I ) were playing xmas tree ISDs.

Also, the alpha strike nature of 167 squadrons was discussed in the last 500pt thread, if you want to look. That's something I'm pointing out either I wrote or someone else wrote.

Also, the numbers I drew from the flotilla discussion we had are from the Regionals data.

I'm hoping people actually respond to logical points more as I am responding to others. Dice rerolls, the FCT one-shot alpha strike of small ships by squadrons.

--

I'm gonna look at those new upgrades again, but can you explain how why you think they will help you vs MSU?

3 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Mmhmm. Let's both hope for the best on what we think would be better balance in the future. ButI think vigorous talking about the issues seems to direct FFG to consider how to elegantly FFG-style address the problem. Or in Xwing, hard-errata-nerf it for the health of the game.

Do note however, that you did make an assumption people (and I ) were playing xmas tree ISDs.

Also, the alpha strike nature of 167 squadrons was discussed in the last 500pt thread, if you want to look. That's something I'm pointing out either I wrote or someone else wrote.

Also, the numbers I drew from the flotilla discussion we had are from the Regionals data.

I'm hoping people actually respond to logical points more as I am responding to others. Dice rerolls, the FCT one-shot alpha strike of small ships by squadrons.

--

I'm gonna look at those new upgrades again, but can you explain how why you think they will help you vs MSU?

Flotillas lean heavily on the Scatter and don't have much else for defense. Sloane with Ties can strip that Flotilla of it's Scatter and Evade fast if you get it caught in a swarm. Still need a number of Ties but if you can break your LGS of the Flotilla habit you won't need to lean on Sloane and her Ties as much after a few weeks.

We don't have a Flotilla issue at all in my area and the only real MSU lists I've seen don't have more than 1 or 2 Flotillas. Bad habits were broken, and I think I know who it was that broke it. He's a fantastic player and he likes, from what I've seen, to take "Meta" builds and find ways to counter them fast.

Or or maybe we just have a more laid back crowd where I almost never see repeat lists outside of the CC Campaigns.

4 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

2 - 121pt ISDs

3 Gozantis with Comms Net + Moffy J.

Howl + 4 Ints.

Best I came up with: Down sides: still has horrible time vs 6+ MSU. has ZERO points left for a bid. Barely doesn't die to 134 rebel squadrons. -> if you "outplay" the squadron player. If they outplay you, their mass of squadrons crushes yours.

Looks like I do need to write the guide after all

Several thoughts: ISD loadout is totally fine here, I would go with these as minimal ISDs myself, however the rest of the fleet does raise questions. I do believe that in cheap ISD fleet one needs to have a third threat be it a ship or a set of squadrons with decent AS, so I dont like the idea of having 3 Gozanti just to bump activation numbers. I would either bump one of the Gozantis to a Raider (19 points diff), go all in with 6 activations squadronless fleet (2 isd 2raider 2 gozanti) or drop one of the gozantis alltogether and bump up squadrons. I would also consider Motti over Jerjerrod if bombers are an issue.

I have less experience in squadron selection, however I believe that this set of squadrons is too expensive and too specialized. I would go either with a minimal set (Cienna/Valen) or a mix of defenders and interceptors with the idea of potentially alpha striking a key squad and/or delaying bombing runs for 1 round.

I feel like squadrons are pretty strong right now. Having proper defense or damage mitigation is important for a fleet these days. Running squadronless or even squadron light is tough if you can't effectively neutralize squad pushers.

4 hours ago, pt106 said:

Looks like I do need to write the guide after all

Several thoughts: ISD loadout is totally fine here, I would go with these as minimal ISDs myself, however the rest of the fleet does raise questions. I do believe that in cheap ISD fleet one needs to have a third threat be it a ship or a set of squadrons with decent AS, so I dont like the idea of having 3 Gozanti just to bump activation numbers. I would either bump one of the Gozantis to a Raider (19 points diff), go all in with 6 activations squadronless fleet (2 isd 2raider 2 gozanti) or drop one of the gozantis alltogether and bump up squadrons. I would also consider Motti over Jerjerrod if bombers are an issue.

I have less experience in squadron selection, however I believe that this set of squadrons is too expensive and too specialized. I would go either with a minimal set (Cienna/Valen) or a mix of defenders and interceptors with the idea of potentially alpha striking a key squad and/or delaying bombing runs for 1 round.

I just played 3 practice games vs full squadron 134 list again. All 3 are losses. Can you make a list that doesn't auto lose to this?

Mythics Utah Regional winner list, if you want to have an exact one to play against.

I would not call the list viable unless it doesn't auto lose to this.

1 hour ago, TallGiraffe said:

I feel like squadrons are pretty strong right now. Having proper defense or damage mitigation is important for a fleet these days. Running squadronless or even squadron light is tough if you can't effectively neutralize squad pushers.

@pt106 Please do not give us a list that just dies to squadrons. Thanks. That's just exemplifying its weakness again.

30 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I just played 3 practice games vs full squadron 134 list again. All 3 are losses. Can you make a list that doesn't auto lose to this?

Mythics Utah Regional winner list, if you want to have an exact one to play against.

I would not call the list viable unless it doesn't auto lose to this.

So you're a pretty bad Armada player?

Just jesting.

But really, that was a lot of ham-fisted conclusions in one VERY brief post.

I don't disagree that squads are very strong, I just want meat on the bone.

40 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

So you're a pretty bad Armada player?

Just jesting.

But really, that was a lot of ham-fisted conclusions in one VERY brief post.

I don't disagree that squads are very strong, I just want meat on the bone.

But are you jesting?

Oh, and does not "auto-lose" to its other inherent weakness: MSU.

Let's use the 4Mc30s with OE and H8 and 3 transports with Mothma as that other list.

Can you make a 2 ISD list that can win a high percent of the time against both lists?

5 hours ago, Beatty said:

Flotillas lean heavily on the Scatter and don't have much else for defense. Sloane with Ties can strip that Flotilla of it's Scatter and Evade fast if you get it caught in a swarm. Still need a number of Ties but if you can break your LGS of the Flotilla habit you won't need to lean on Sloane and her Ties as much after a few weeks.

We don't have a Flotilla issue at all in my area and the only real MSU lists I've seen don't have more than 1 or 2 Flotillas. Bad habits were broken, and I think I know who it was that broke it. He's a fantastic player and he likes, from what I've seen, to take "Meta" builds and find ways to counter them fast.

Or or maybe we just have a more laid back crowd where I almost never see repeat lists outside of the CC Campaigns.

You have a more laid back crowd. People here win tournament after tournament since wave2 with the same core list. So, that's probably a repeat list archetype for nearly 40 games?

Ships are an auto included.

Ships can move even when they shoot without rogue.

Ships cannot be engaged.

All Non named ships have defense tokens.

Ships can resolve crits and those icon add damage without bomber.

Ships shoot twice per activation.

I see a meta here.

100% tournament winners bring at least 1 ship.

FFG, give us something to kill that meta or Armada will die... again.

5 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Oh, and does not "auto-lose" to its other inherent weakness: MSU.

Let's use the 4Mc30s with OE and H8 and 3 transports with Mothma as that other list.

Can you make a 2 ISD list that can win a high percent of the time against both lists?

In fairness, this is a very tall order for any list. Part of the reason I keep getting away with my cheesy shrimps locally is the prevalence of bomber heavy play from multiple other top players. It's difficult enough to address either kind of threat individually--both simultaneously is really tough.

Not to say I think it can't be done. Just that it's not a challenge limited to ISDs.

6 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

You have a more laid back crowd. People here win tournament after tournament since wave2 with the same core list. So, that's probably a repeat list archetype for nearly 40 games?

Sometimes I forget that Portland has a large diverse gaming scene that tends to take gaming differently then some other areas. Maybe some issues are not so much Meta as it is Local Meta. We complain about there not being enough Armada players at times even though we have 5 or 6 LGS's that have a player base in the area. I can get on our Facebook group and get a game at any of those stores almost any day of the week.

We're spoiled and we just don't realize it.

Ive run double ISD, and its fun. It has its issues.... but its fun, and you win some, you lose some, like any other list.

Does it have issues? Of course. It should.

If you dont take a fighter screen there should be consequences. If you dont take activations there should be consequences. If you dont take significant ship based weaponry there should be consequences. If you dont take objectives that your fleet is well equipped to handle/exploit, there should be consequences. Thats the nature of of choice.

To often I see people wanting the advantages without the consequences. When I fly double ISD I know Im going to be out activated and that I have to plan for that to be the case. That its going to be far less forgiving. That the squadrons I take in my remaining 100pts are going to need to either deal significant antiship damage or be a **** good fighter screen, but that I probably cant afford to mix the two.

Balanced should never be confused with without drawbacks.

8 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

I just played 3 practice games vs full squadron 134 list again. All 3 are losses. Can you make a list that doesn't auto lose to this?

Mythics Utah Regional winner list, if you want to have an exact one to play against.

I would not call the list viable unless it doesn't auto lose to this.

How do you define or know something would auto-lose?

i have my own internal definition of that, but curious of yours.

9 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

I just played 3 practice games vs full squadron 134 list again. All 3 are losses. Can you make a list that doesn't auto lose to this?

Mythics Utah Regional winner list, if you want to have an exact one to play against.

I would not call the list viable unless it doesn't auto lose to this.

Now I have to ask a question, not insinuating anything but is it the list or the player that makes the list you faced unbeatable? If you are saying an average player can take and win a tournament with it please post the list so we can pick it apart and help others defend against it. If it's the player there isn't too much that can be done because this game favors the player's abilities over list building more than any Miniature Game I've played.

Tector and the MC-75 would be my preference. The Tector is cannon and is not a Clone War left over, so it seems like the next logical step for the Imperials.

26 minutes ago, Beatty said:

Now I have to ask a question, not insinuating anything but is it the list or the player that makes the list you faced unbeatable? If you are saying an average player can take and win a tournament with it please post the list so we can pick it apart and help others defend against it. If it's the player there isn't too much that can be done because this game favors the player's abilities over list building more than any Miniature Game I've played.

Its been posted a few places, and in fairness its an exceptionally well tuned list. Pelta command/yav/transport x3 with jan/wedge/norra/bwingx(4?)/z95, multiple sources of reroll, 4 point bid. Lots of moving parts but no wasted motion, if you catch my meaning.

But I've played similar things before its rose to popularity and more simlar things after, and its not something anyone can bring and win with. It requires discipline and a pretty deep understanding of how the list works to make it really sing. And it sounds like Mythics brings this thing like every week so the obvious inference to draw is that he also runs the list exceptionally well.

TL;DR- from the outside looking in, it seems like its an exceptional player playing a well tuned list at a high level.

People, if you are looking for a almighty list... this is not the game you are looking for.

I think FFG made all their ship whit some weakness on purpose. The objective is to force you to make some choice. Those choice will influence your game and the result of it. Sometimes you will win, sometimes you will not.

That what make this game fun.

9 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

Its been posted a few places, and in fairness its an exceptionally well tuned list. Pelta command/yav/transport x3 with jan/wedge/norra/bwingx(4?)/z95, multiple sources of reroll, 4 point bid. Lots of moving parts but no wasted motion, if you catch my meaning.

But I've played similar things before its rose to popularity and more simlar things after, and its not something anyone can bring and win with. It requires discipline and a pretty deep understanding of how the list works to make it really sing. And it sounds like Mythics brings this thing like every week so the obvious inference to draw is that he also runs the list exceptionally well.

TL;DR- from the outside looking in, it seems like its an exceptional player playing a well tuned list at a high level.

So a good list in the hands of a good player. Yep, they're going down. Need a great player with a great list to counter this, not just a community made list.

I think there is too many variable in this game to even think of a best list.

Your list (ship-squadron) can make a difference, your positionning at the start of the game can make a difference, your orders can make a difference, your move can make a difference, your dice can make a difference, your foe can make a difference. So every assets can make a difference.

If you could always win, Armada should died soon.

But for me, because there is no perfect list... Armada is not dead