1 minute ago, Muz333 said:

Just for clarity I was meaning I'd like a Runewars lore-book to buy, the talk of buying rule-books is alien to me.

Welcome to the nerd-dom that plays games with text books!

3 minutes ago, VanorDM said:

. But for most people they'd be much happier paying $5 for a PDF of just the stats, or maybe $15-20 for a softcover version of just the stats.

And that was the reason I didn't mind buying the book in MK2 of warmachine it was a softcover book that was 3-400 pages 1/4 was rules 1/4 was stats blocks for some of the common models for each faction and 1/2 was fluff and pictures. I don't mind the MK3 rulebook being a hard bound $50 copy of that same thing because they decided to make the rules digest available free online but also include a physical copy of it in every single starter box they make, which was cool because most MK2 players I know ended up getting a battebox of the old models for the new casters and more models

and sorry for my constantly falling back on Warmahordes I just really like that game and think that as a Miniature game company Privateer does a whole hell of a lot right...

1 minute ago, jek said:

Miniature game company Privateer does a whole hell of a lot right...

I'd agree that they are one of the better ones out there.

I've always thought they were one of the ones that weren't so great. I played Warmachine for around 8 years. Badly designed models as far as building them, rules that make players try to plan everything around a first or second turn victory, being in the Seattle area the staff and ownership are arrogant and unfriendly. I think the original premise of Warmachine was great 15 years ago, and its hugely popular still (so maybe I evolved out of their target market), but recently trying the newest version after a hiatus, it's still way too frustrating to play

The quality has greatly improved the models are easier to assemble and look much better but yeah there is a heavy emphasis on alpha strike, though first and second turn victories are rarer now...games still don't usually last longer than 4 turns though. I've never found the staff rude or arrogant but I have only contacted them do to issues and they always handled those quickly but I mean I can understand your hesitation or dislike.

While I myself am not a huge fan of the Warmachine chosen aesthetic and model design, you have to give Privateer that it is one of the tightest rulesets on the market.

FFG's rules, I find, are a bit more streamlined and accessible without losing much if any of the nuance.

3 hours ago, VanorDM said:

Myself I'd much rather buy a pack of minutes I can paint and use that comes with a card I want then pay $60+ for a book that has about 15-20 pages of actual useful info and 100+ pages of fluff and pictures, and then have to buy the models as well.

And then buy the expansion books and then buy them all again in a few years so I can find out that most of the models I have are now worthless to play with.

Well for many fluff and pictures/artwork about the army/miniatures/world is important part of the wargaming hobyy so it is not useless and having free downloadable rules is not so uncommon these days so you just buy the miniatures.

And about cards or rules/book, i would say both have their advantages and disadvantages. Someone said they can release a new card to update bad units, true but as seen in X-Wing you have to buy something to get it and it's an upgrade no stat change which might be necessary sometimes. With a book you get your erratas as free downloads, yes this means of course something written in the book is outdated and you might have put a printout of said errata into it.
So as said i think none is better they are just different and for different people, i really like fluff so i buy the books for Infinity, someone who doesn't liek fluff can download the rules or play a game with stat cards so you don't need a book. And cards can get outdated two, just look at Warmachine, how many times where the cards/rules changed? Yes i know Warmachine/Hordes is more of a book with cards as reminders kind of game, but still.

I have played bot kind of games with books and with cards and for me that part of the game isn't the biggest selling point, i want a world/fluff i like, great miniatures and good rules.

43 minutes ago, Iceeagle85 said:

Well for many fluff and pictures/artwork about the army/miniatures/world is important part of the wargaming hobyy so it is not useless and having free downloadable rules is not so uncommon these days so you just buy the miniatures.

And about cards or rules/book, i would say both have their advantages and disadvantages. Someone said they can release a new card to update bad units, true but as seen in X-Wing you have to buy something to get it and it's an upgrade no stat change which might be necessary sometimes. With a book you get your erratas as free downloads, yes this means of course something written in the book is outdated and you might have put a printout of said errata into it.
So as said i think none is better they are just different and for different people, i really like fluff so i buy the books for Infinity, someone who doesn't liek fluff can download the rules or play a game with stat cards so you don't need a book. And cards can get outdated two, just look at Warmachine, how many times where the cards/rules changed? Yes i know Warmachine/Hordes is more of a book with cards as reminders kind of game, but still.

I have played bot kind of games with books and with cards and for me that part of the game isn't the biggest selling point, i want a world/fluff i like, great miniatures and good rules.

You're right the free rules is becoming the norm, I'm not arguing that I just am saying I like that option. You can errata cards just as easy as a book though and FFG does that regularly, I don't think they release upgrade packs to fix things, they just put out erratas for cards that are broken. Also I am not discrediting fluff that is a very important part of a game and can be a selling point for a game to a lot of player myself included, but for learning the game it is unnecessary. Just my two cents.

Of course you do not need fluff for learning the game, but for now it seems teh traditional way to put out a rulebook with fluff, yes GW and Corvus Belli for example do these things in seperate books but with exception of the small GW rulebook you can only buy them together. Maybe if FFG's way of doing a lore book proves sucessful we will see more rulebokks with just a little lore to get you going and bigger ones for those who are interested in the lore and maybe the we will see which way is cheaper for the customers.

And one has to say that nearly every two player starter i know of has a full rulebook included (probably in most cases one without fluff or paiting/terrain section) so depending on the faction you want you wouldn't need to buy the big book and even if your faction is not in the starter you can often buy the book from the starter via ebay/forums if you know about it.

And i know that you can errata cards as easy as books though i personal don't like cards with errors, don't ask me why i have a bigger problem with wrong cards then books, probably because i write the information i need on my armylist so i have all in one place and don't need to print something, but that is just me.

So we are agreeing to agree? Corvis puts a lot of the fluff in the rule books but they also put stat blocks and rule books and an army builder up on their sight for free, and most infinity players I knew preferred the wiki to the actual book. You're also right about the two player box, and I'll hand to to GW since they really embraced the whole digest rules for those ever since they started making them, first one I grabbed was Battle for Macragge? but they require the army book which is now $50 and is the only way to get all the stat blocks and upgrades. I wish that info was just in the box with the minis.

Yes we do agree it seems, and about the army book/codices, well in case of GW that will probably never change. Yes AoS has free rules but i think some formations and special rules/boni if you play a certain kind of army are only available via their battletomes. Do you know if you can play Warmachine without the Forces of books? I know you have cards in the boces but the books also have those rules for armies led by x with only certain units (with different tiers) that will give you boni and are those available without the books?

25 minutes ago, Iceeagle85 said:

Yes we do agree it seems, and about the army book/codices, well in case of GW that will probably never change. Yes AoS has free rules but i think some formations and special rules/boni if you play a certain kind of army are only available via their battletomes. Do you know if you can play Warmachine without the Forces of books? I know you have cards in the boces but the books also have those rules for armies led by x with only certain units (with different tiers) that will give you boni and are those available without the books?

yeah the forces books are purely for unnecessary, they have even stated that they may stop having stats blocks in them and just end up being a fluff supplement for your faction. The themes are available in the app and other than that I'm not sure where else you can get the info...FOUND IT! they have an updated PDF of all available theme forces and requirements! so yeah if you are involved in the game and MK4 happens in like 8 years you will have to either update the app or update your cards but if you buy a new model with only mk2 card in it PP sends you the updated card free...

Is the app available for free? I played a little Cygnar in the first edition nad later got some pirates and much later some Convergence models, great art deco look, but i didn't knew then it would be only the unist from that one book and not more. And right now i'm interested in Khador and the Grymkin.

2 minutes ago, Iceeagle85 said:

Is the app available for free? I played a little Cygnar in the first edition nad later got some pirates and much later some Convergence models, great art deco look, but i didn't knew then it would be only the unist from that one book and not more. And right now i'm interested in Khador and the Grymkin.

App is free, but you pay for each factions cards

Yeah the app is free and includes the cards that appear in the prime and primal free but then each deck cost money...but each deck will always be updated with the errata the day it launches and included every new card for a faction the day the stats are published

I keep telling people that if anything is going to kill this game, it's going to be trying to pull in two types of gamers and not meeting the expectations of either. The game itself looks amazing in every possible way, but the distribution model has something about it that bothers both groups it appeals to.

The board game and LCG players (which have a lot of overlap) who are drawn to it because they love FFG often find it too expensive. They're looking at the cost to build a full army and saying, "And then you have to put it together? And maybe even paint it??" Miniatures gamers are used to these prices, and many love assembly/painting; for them it's actually better that it comes unpainted.

On the other hand, miniatures gamers can't wrap their heads around cards being something you pay money for, that you're not allowed to use a certain upgrade without. In every "hobby" miniatures game I'm aware of (Warhammer, Warmachine, Kings of War, Malifaux, Infinity, etc) cards are something that if you buy them at all, it's just for the convenience of having a handy reference. The idea of "you have this upgrade if you have the card for it, but otherwise you don't" is completely foreign to them. Paying money for a concept (rather than a physical miniature) is not something they're okay with. Board gamers and (especially) LCG players have no problem with this concept at all.

Arguing with people about what is reasonable and what isn't won't help, because it's all about the game not meeting people's preconceived expectations. It's definitely the hardest obstacle this game has to overcome, and I hope FFG is up to the task of mitigating each problem as best they can.

Come to think of it, it's actually a similar problem that online CCGs like Magic Online and Hearthstone have had.

CCG players have no problem paying hundreds of dollars for pieces of cardboard that do things in their game, but many can't stand the idea of buying something purely digital, with no physical representation.

Meanwhile, videogame players buy purely digital games all the time, not batting an eye at paying $50 or $60 for a game and another $20 or $30 each for a few expansions. But buying individual components in a game (a single card, or a pack of random cards, for example) was unheard of. Many cried that they should be able to pay a flat fee and have everything the game could offer; maybe they'd have to play to unlock some things, but paying real money to unlock something that already exists in the game?

Both of these groups have (for the most part) come to terms with this business model, one way or another, but it took a while.

Hm quite some miniature wargamers I know play X-Wing so they already know that card thing and then there are games like Eden (which is older than X-Wing) which has mission and some sort of tactic cards and Freebooters Fate which has optional equipment cards and Loa cards for magic(and is also older than X-Wing) so having cards formore than just stats is nothing that new of course all these mentioned games don't have that high amount of cards X-Wing has.

14 hours ago, Iceeagle85 said:

Hm quite some miniature wargamers I know play X-Wing so they already know that card thing and then there are games like Eden (which is older than X-Wing) which has mission and some sort of tactic cards and Freebooters Fate which has optional equipment cards and Loa cards for magic(and is also older than X-Wing) so having cards formore than just stats is nothing that new of course all these mentioned games don't have that high amount of cards X-Wing has.

Yeah most miniature gamers I know are in the same boat as this, they either play X-wing or are familiar enough with it that they aren't just sitting there scratching their heads about what new creature this is sitting on the table staring back at them in a two dimensional fashion. I think the idea that most miniature gamers can't get on board because of the upgrade cards, is flawed. It is no different than not being able to field models you don't own, in casual play not all players are against proxies, personally I don't like proxies other than testing out something before purchase, but that is stemmed from dealing with a player who regularly proxied over 50% or his army..

I personally don't have a problem with proxies as long as they are not to much and are not used for ever, but then without proxies you wouldn't get extremely stupid but extremely hilarious proxies like these Blood Letters . And that is another thing I like about miniature games, the sheer creativity you can find there, yes I know creativity is not only found in miniature wargaming or arts, but still I like it. I have seen a ton of awesome 40K Orc scratch builds/conversions one was an Orktimus Prime made out of an Orc truck which really could transform or a Banebkade with a stage filled with the old metal Goff Rockers and beer kegs. And then we have the terrain and tables for which you find many awesome projects out there which make you think if you just could do about a 10th of what they do it would be awesome, same for painters I still fail at NMM or Source Ligthning but it can look awesome and I once saw a Tau Stealth suit painted like it's soroundings that was also great. And then there are dioramas and unit fillers.

Yes I'm looking forward to what the really talented people out there will do with this and I might get inspired by them

5 minutes ago, Iceeagle85 said:

I personally don't have a problem with proxies as long as they are not to much and are not used for ever, but then without proxies you wouldn't get extremely stupid but extremely hilarious proxies like these Blood Letters . And that is another thing I like about miniature games, the sheer creativity you can find there, yes I know creativity is not only found in miniature wargaming or arts, but still I like it. I have seen a ton of awesome 40K Orc scratch builds/conversions one was an Orktimus Prime made out of an Orc truck which really could transform or a Banebkade with a stage filled with the old metal Goff Rockers and beer kegs. And then we have the terrain and tables for which you find many awesome projects out there which make you think if you just could do about a 10th of what they do it would be awesome, same for painters I still fail at NMM or Source Ligthning but it can look awesome and I once saw a Tau Stealth suit painted like it's soroundings that was also great. And then there are dioramas and unit fillers.

Yes I'm looking forward to what the really talented people out there will do with this and I might get inspired by them

Yeah but when you are fighting a shoe box because the guy doesn't want to buy a tank, or a set of Dawnguard sentinels that are actually bane knights that mysteriously become bane thralls...eventually that person would show up and ask I wanted to play a game and my response what just do you actually HAVE your list now?...Proxying can be fine...but I just feel that it should be a temporary solution.

1 hour ago, jek said:

Yeah but when you are fighting a shoe box because the guy doesn't want to buy a tank, or a set of Dawnguard sentinels that are actually bane knights that mysteriously become bane thralls...eventually that person would show up and ask I wanted to play a game and my response what just do you actually HAVE your list now?...Proxying can be fine...but I just feel that it should be a temporary solution.

This is how I feel. It's one reason why I'm glad FFG is instituting an escalation league of some sort. It means there is less incentive to proxy things right out the gate.

21 hours ago, Zetan said:

On the other hand, miniatures gamers can't wrap their heads around cards being something you pay money for, that you're not allowed to use a certain upgrade without.

As others have pointed out, you're simply wrong about this. Between X-Wing, Armada and to a point Imperial Assault, there's very few miniature gamers who don't play one of those games or at least have dabbled in it, because X-Wing was last time I saw the best selling tabletop miniature game in the US.

Those numbers are somewhat debatable due to how they're collected, but there isn't much question that X-Wing sells a ton of stuff and as such there's going to be very few people who don't know about it.

If a board gamer doesn't get into this game due to putting together and painting the models... That's not a customer FFG would of gotten anyway, because preassembled and painted miniatures is simply not an option in this game.

On ‎3‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 2:47 PM, Zetan said:

On the other hand, miniatures gamers can't wrap their heads around cards being something you pay money for, that you're not allowed to use a certain upgrade without. In every "hobby" miniatures game I'm aware of (Warhammer, Warmachine, Kings of War, Malifaux, Infinity, etc) cards are something that if you buy them at all, it's just for the convenience of having a handy reference. The idea of "you have this upgrade if you have the card for it, but otherwise you don't" is completely foreign to them. Paying money for a concept (rather than a physical miniature) is not something they're okay with. Board gamers and (especially) LCG players have no problem with this concept at all.

As an old-timer I can tell you of the days when GW did exactly this. Warhammer 3rd edition had a separate set for magic rules, that contained all of the system's magic spells on cards. You could buy the core game, buy wizard minis, but if you didn't buy the spell cards you couldn't cast magic. They did the same thing with 40k second edition's psyker system. Miniature gamers seemed to figure it out just fine. And there are many other equivalents too that aren't necessarily cards, such as BattleTech record sheets.

2 hours ago, JasonGlass said:

As an old-timer I can tell you of the days when GW did exactly this. Warhammer 3rd edition had a separate set for magic rules, that contained all of the system's magic spells on cards. You could buy the core game, buy wizard minis, but if you didn't buy the spell cards you couldn't cast magic. They did the same thing with 40k second edition's psyker system. Miniature gamers seemed to figure it out just fine. And there are many other equivalents too that aren't necessarily cards, such as BattleTech record sheets.

Yeah, I feel like GW basically invented this model. Buy the rulebook, buy the codex for your faction specific rules, oh you want to run more powerfists? They only come one on a sprue, better buy more kits because official games are always WYSIWYG.