41 minutes ago, Hijodecain said:
In my FLGS where I'm going to rule the games I will allow all the players to play with proxies. I don't like that distribution model.
You'll want to be careful with that. FFG has OP rules, and if you don't follow them for official sanctioned tournaments you won't be running them long.
FFG do zero control on seasonal tournaments (with kit), I'm not talking about a Store Championship, Regional or National (if here FFG is copying the X-Wing model). I'm just talking about not checking all the material the people have. And also I'm not talking about a country which the game is distributed by Asmodee / FFG.
We have done this from the beginning with X-Wing since wave 1 (2012) and zero problems.
I'd take having to buy 2-3 A-wings to play an empire list in a legal tournament to having to shell out 120-150 bucks every 2-3 years to update rules books. Also most players in X-wing don't end up buying every ship for every upgrade...so I don't understand the feeling that out of the gate you are against the game assuming you will have to buy everything, which the assumption is not actually founded in past data. Yes at times FFG has required players to pick up a specific ship outside of the faction, A-wing, Star-viper, Kirahz, but in this game they have said from the beginning that won't be a thing, they didn't automatically say well because of that you are going to need to buy all the things of your faction! So far the display of cards has been showing that the upgrades are mainly focusing on the strengths of the expansion pack, so if you want to run all cav then only get the cav expacs and it should be what you are going to need for the cav. When we see the infantry we will probably see cards that cater to those strengths. Maybe some repeats from cav or archery...
Mixing the cards from both sets previewed till now:
I know I have to be patient because there are still 4 expansion boxes waiting to reveal the content (on Waiqar side: Reanimates, Carrion Lancers, Ankaur Maro and Command Group), but right now there are very useful cards on the other faction much more useful than some included in your faction army.
PS: Wind Rune on Carrion Lancer (same faction, not complaining about this) is also amazing since the left dial activate the card and on the right dial you can move or add defense, the only problem is that you need a 2x2 formation to do that.
PS2: I have to be patient, I know >_<
9 hours ago, Tvayumat said:It's not offensive, but it is firmly rooted in what seems to be raw preference unsupported by reason.
The alternatives sell you special rules in $80 hardback books that get phased out every year or so, so it seems like you're picking an odd sticking point to sour you on an entire game.
That's pretty exaggerated, and you know it. Kings of War, Age of Sigmar, Frostgrave, various other Osprey fantasy/medieval games, etc, are nowhere near that expensive for their rules or frequent with their versions. The closest thing to that price would be if you bought the full fluff version of Warhammer 40k at $80 full MSRP and then a Codex for the army you want to play for $30-60 MSRP, and the shortest time in history between 40k versions was 6th to 7th at two years. Before, 4-6 years was the general rule, and we're already about three years into 7th edition.
Right now, the first wave of upgrades for just the Daqan side is $135 MSRP. Even if the waves get much smaller, let's say half, that's still $65 2-3 times a year thereafter. Also, should you decide to pick up another faction to play, it's not as simple as a single Codex - you now need to buy everything ever made for that faction to have a complete ruleset for it, regardless of whether you want the miniatures or not.
8 hours ago, Hijodecain said:I understand you perfectly. Been forced in a miniature game to get all the models for a faction and in some cases several copies just to get access to some cards is not a good situation, because more you pay, more access to some upgrades, maybe better combos you can get. And this is not fair, I want to be better than you because of my strategy, not because of my wallet.
In my FLGS where I'm going to rule the games I will allow all the players to play with proxies. I don't like that distribution model.
Thanks, I thought maybe I was just the crazy one out.
I don't blame anyone for buying in, looks like a cool game, but just not a model I'll support personally. I liked X-Wing too but sold it off for the same reason.
1 hour ago, jek said:I'd take having to buy 2-3 A-wings to play an empire list in a legal tournament to having to shell out 120-150 bucks every 2-3 years to update rules books. Also most players in X-wing don't end up buying every ship for every upgrade...so I don't understand the feeling that out of the gate you are against the game assuming you will have to buy everything, which the assumption is not actually founded in past data. Yes at times FFG has required players to pick up a specific ship outside of the faction, A-wing, Star-viper, Kirahz, but in this game they have said from the beginning that won't be a thing, they didn't automatically say well because of that you are going to need to buy all the things of your faction! So far the display of cards has been showing that the upgrades are mainly focusing on the strengths of the expansion pack, so if you want to run all cav then only get the cav expacs and it should be what you are going to need for the cav. When we see the infantry we will probably see cards that cater to those strengths. Maybe some repeats from cav or archery...
Except someone starting X-Wing as an Imperial player is going to have to buy far more than 2-3 A-Wings, and will continue to have to do so. To your other point, I hope you're right, but so far the generic upgrades seem like they'd be useful on more than just the included models. When they first said it wouldn't be like X-Wing, I had hopes that the rules found in the packs would be specifically for those models, which would be ideal, and is why I came back for clarification. So far it seems like that isn't the case, but obviously we'll know more later.
9 hours ago, Drakoniss said:I love that they can easily update a weak unit just by making a few cards. Balance can be fixed at any time. Plus even my cheapest fantasy/kings of war armies cost 400$ plus.
Perhaps, though X-Wing has shown that balance with this model can be hard to maintain. The future will tell.
Also, the size of a $400 Kings of War army would be... monstrous. That's not really a fair comparison at all, when a mega army pack directly from Mantic is only $149. You may have spent far more, but you did so because you wanted the models, and had no mandate to do so in order to gain access to more rules.
I get that you see the upgrade cards as rules but they aren't rules. They are upgrades same as you would get from fielding a different model or unit. You aren't buying more rules or restricted from accessing rules you are just not able to use specific upgrades. It doesn't really matter that you see them as rules I can see an orange as a pear but I'm not right. The rules do not change because you don't have Tempered Steel or Shield Wall equipped on a card you unit's abilities do...Constantly referring to upgrades as rules is an incorrect simplification.
Just now, jek said:I get that you see the upgrade cards as rules but they aren't rules. They are upgrades same as you would get from fielding a different model or unit. You aren't buying more rules or restricted from accessing rules you are just not able to use specific upgrades. It doesn't really matter that you see them as rules I can see an orange as a pear but I'm not right. The rules do not change because you don't have Tempered Steel or Shield Wall equipped on a card you unit's abilities do...Constantly referring to upgrades as rules is an incorrect simplification.
So are optional upgrades that are listed in other games for a particular model that you don't have to take over the base rules for that model not rules? I don't see that as incorrect as all, an upgrade card is just a card that contains an optional upgrade for that unit like you would find in every other miniatures game.
Yeah but the rules don't change they give you access to abilities or skills or change the how a unit might function. Are the swords or axes on 40k minis Rules? is a gun a rule? The rule is what ever you put on you list you have and you can only have an upgrade that your card reflect having a slot for and so on... If I am building an army the RULES say I have X points and if I want a 2x3 group of archers it will cost Y points and have access to 3 types of upgrades. Upgrades are just another element to list building like units...
Just now, jek said:Yeah but the rules don't change they give you access to abilities or skills or change the how a unit might function. Are the swords or axes on 40k minis Rules? is a gun a rule? The rule is what ever you put on you list you have and you can only have an upgrade that your card reflect having a slot for and so on... If I am building an army the RULES say I have X points and if I want a 2x3 group of archers it will cost Y points and have access to 3 types of upgrades. Upgrades are just another element to list building like units...
I'm not sure how available upgrades for a unit when building a list can't be considered rules for that unit. If I say in 40k that in the base game, Tactical Space Marines can only take Boltguns, but then I offer you a pack of Terminators that has a sheet in it that says you can now give your Space Marines a rocket launcher for 15pts, I've spread the rules governing Tactical Marines into two different sets bundled with unrelated models. If you buy both sets of models, your Tacticals can have a rocket launcher, whereas mine cannot, even though we both own Tactical Marines.
Rules are not saying you can add for 2 surge an extra hit, Rules say that you can take a equipment upgrade. The upgrade itself if what say on attack spend 2 surge for an extra hit. If you don't see that the two are different then we can continue to agree to disagree I just find your wording misleading as the rules are the books in the core set, if a new upgrade adds a new rule like in X-win with Ion tokens, then FFG will post an FAQ errata with that rule so that everyone understands the rule whether they bought a ship with Ion weapon UPGRADES or not...
I side with @Jek on this discussion. I think your point of view on whether cards are rules or not really depends on your background. It's true that many traditional wargames have a book that outlines all the main phases and rules, but also the customization options. This leads to the concept that the miniatures are the main part of the game, but the stuff on paper is just rules.
However, if you talk to someone with a CCG background, they would look at you really funny if you tried to tell them that the cards they were buying were just rules. In those kinds of games, the cards are integral to the system. You can read all the rules and know how to play the game without reading all the cards, but you can't play without the physical cards. You could buy into the game and have a starter deck that lets you play with 60 cards, but that doesn't mean you are entitled to run any 60-card deck you want.
I've always approached FFG's games with a dual miniatures/card game mentality. The cards with upgrade abilities are integral to the game as physical products. They are just as important to the game as the models. That's why I just can't see Runewars upgrade cards as a rulebook chopped up and divvied up into several expansions. To me, those cards hold the same value as an LCG card -- if you don't own it, you don't play it.
1 hour ago, Shadin said:Perhaps, though X-Wing has shown that balance with this model can be hard to maintain. The future will tell.
The X-Wing developers have shown their willingness to move past their reticence to directly errata cards, which fixes any balance issues that arise from releasing combinations which are considered unbalanced.
1 hour ago, Shadin said:When they first said it wouldn't be like X-Wing, I had hopes that the rules found in the packs would be specifically for those models, which would be ideal, and is why I came back for clarification.
This sounds like it would lead to stagnation. By all means include some cards that are specific to certain units, but without the list building flexibility of neutral cards, the system loses a lot of its appeal.
Edited by Wannabe PhD34 minutes ago, Wannabe PhD said:This sounds like it would lead to stagnation. By all means include some cards that are specific to certain units, but without the list building flexibility of neutral cards, the system loses a lot of its appeal.
These are my exact thoughts. The only alternative I can see is to have the upgrade cards completely separate from model packs and sold as a card only expansion. Perhaps the Command Pack will offer most of the upgrade cards?
I love what they do with x-wing balance and faq's,its not a perfect system but its clearly better than any other system out there and more balanced than it has ever been. What game Fantasy Battles game works better? Games with like 100 models in a typical game, not skirmish games.
I think offering upgrade cards in a pack separate from any model is a super interesting idea. I doubt FFG will implement it, but I would totally buy a pack of neutral upgrade cards for like $10-$15 (like a data pack for netrunner or mythos pack for AH) if there were enough of them. A smaller pack could be $5.
Oh, boy. It's this thread again.
3 hours ago, DrCthulhu said:I think offering upgrade cards in a pack separate from any model is a super interesting idea. I doubt FFG will implement it, but I would totally buy a pack of neutral upgrade cards for like $10-$15 (like a data pack for netrunner or mythos pack for AH) if there were enough of them. A smaller pack could be $5.
People would just complain about having to buy card packs, when they only want one or 2 cards. You will never satisfy them unless every single thing in the game is sold as a "Single". Plus there are those guys in every group that think everything is to much, and should be free.
The "I want to play this game but you should not make me but stuff" market?
8 hours ago, jek said:The "I want to play this game but you should not make me but stuff" market?
Is the full blown miniatures gamers, which I admit I am not, that complain when you can't play a game without buying that games miniatures that gets me. As a boardgamer I've never thought 'why should I buy that game? I have dice and tokens from other games already'.
Myself I'd much rather buy a pack of minutes I can paint and use that comes with a card I want then pay $60+ for a book that has about 15-20 pages of actual useful info and 100+ pages of fluff and pictures, and then have to buy the models as well.
And then buy the expansion books and then buy them all again in a few years so I can find out that most of the models I have are now worthless to play with.
Edited by VanorDM39 minutes ago, VanorDM said:100+ pages of fluff and pictures
I'd buy that Runewars book!
9 minutes ago, Muz333 said:I'd buy that Runewars book!
I think the problem is the fact that a required is so expensive. I remember when GW launched their 40k 7ed books, it was 3 books for I think $80 or something. Then a bit later they released a digest version of the rules, it was only 50...and only available for a limited time. I've decided that I no long am willing to buy into a game that forces me to buy rulebooks, in most cases I will end up purchasing a physical copy of a book because I do prefer it to having a PDF or something but If a game out of the gate says hey you like our minis and want to try our game? Well that will be 50 bucks for the rules! Adding insult to injury is when on top of rules an army book is required to get your stat blocks...I was really happy when PP finally decided to make the rules for Warmahordes free, since you already got all the stats for you models when you purchased them...It became the ideal business model for a mini game to me. It is also the same model that FFG uses for there games. Which is why I like their games and am not bothered by the cost...I like when the only thing I need to buy for a game is actual game components.
6 minutes ago, jek said:I think the problem is the fact that a required is so expensive.
Yeah, the issue isn't the amount of fluff, it's the fact that I'm forced to pay $60+ for a book, that only has maybe a dozen or so pages of actual game rules/stats. If someone wants to spend $50 on a book of fluff, that's great, but I don't want to be forced to do so just to play the game.
With GW it's like they have decided that they're going to charge that much and then make it hardcover, full color glossy pages with tons of fluff and stuff, so the price is justified. But for most people they'd be much happier paying $5 for a PDF of just the stats, or maybe $15-20 for a softcover version of just the stats.
With a game like Runewars or X-Wing, at least I'm getting something I can actually play with.
Edited by VanorDMJust for clarity I was meaning I'd like a Runewars lore-book to buy, the talk of buying rule-books is alien to me.