11 hours ago, Click5 said:

official games are always WYSIWYG.

::shudder::

On 3/27/2017 at 0:12 PM, VanorDM said:

As others have pointed out, you're simply wrong about this. Between X-Wing, Armada and to a point Imperial Assault, there's very few miniature gamers who don't play one of those games or at least have dabbled in it, because X-Wing was last time I saw the best selling tabletop miniature game in the US.

Those numbers are somewhat debatable due to how they're collected, but there isn't much question that X-Wing sells a ton of stuff and as such there's going to be very few people who don't know about it.

If a board gamer doesn't get into this game due to putting together and painting the models... That's not a customer FFG would of gotten anyway, because preassembled and painted miniatures is simply not an option in this game.

That's fair. X-Wing has probably done a decent job of warming them up to the idea, but I know a number of Warhammer players who avoided X-Wing specifically for this reason. The idea of needing to buy a ship you weren't going to use just to get the card inside was completely outrageous to them.

I'm certainly not saying that everyone who has ever played a miniatures game will have that mentality, or even necessarily the majority, but you definitely will see some of them. We already have seen some here, and more will almost certainly appear as the game becomes more popular. I think another reason for the mentality you see today is that GW was in a strange position of being (a) the most popular ruleset and (b) not running many official tournaments for a very long time. This means that many people who have been playing games like Warhammer Fantasy Battles for a number of years (an obvious target demographic for this game) got used to being able to use any models they'd like from any range they'd like. You could just buy two rulebooks, and that could literally be the end of your purchases from GW until they released a new edition, getting your models from Wargames Factory or Mantic or whoever else you wanted. Technically these would be considered proxies, but they were completely accepted at the vast majority of Warhammer tournaments.

Getting people back into the mentality of WYSIWYG is not going to be trivial, even though all the big game companies officially require it. I've already had conversations along the lines of, "But I already own an undead army I like, what do you mean I need to buy new models for this new game?" Hopefully we'll be able to get enough people over it quickly enough to forge a decent-sized community, but it's definitely something to be aware of when you're telling new people about the game.

If were playing in someone's house or at a FLGS, and a player wants to use his painted skeleton archers in place of the reanimate archers, I've got no problem with that. If he tries to put down some space marines with bolters instead of reanimate archers, then we've got a problem... a big problem.

But unless your playing in a FFG sanctioned Tournament, I'd like to see a pro-painted bretonian knight over a unpainted runewar cav model.

Then again, most of the folks down here are players first, then painters.

In casual play with your friends you should always be able to use whatever miniature you want as long as the size of miniature/base and the looks are fitting. Yes this is very vague and needs to be checked when it comes up but I too would play against a WHF Vampire Counts army dressing up as a Runewars Waiqar army. And no torunament palyer has to be brought back to the WYSIWG mentality, torunaments rely on this, yes you can use miniatures from different companies for non official torunaments but I thinol evry tournament players knows an official tournament needs official miniatures/cards and so on.
I would say beeing able to get so many different miniatures you can use for your armies is one of the good things of today.

52 minutes ago, Zetan said:

. You could just buy two rulebooks, and that could literally be the end of your purchases from GW until they released a new edition, getting your models from Wargames Factory or Mantic or whoever else you wanted. Technically these would be considered proxies, but they were completely accepted at the vast majority of Warhammer tournaments.

I have never seen an official tournament allow this but that may just be my experience. I even remember my friend being told to leave a blood bowl event at a gw store because he used an army by a random company when gw wasnt putting out models. But honestly I kinda feel is messed up to go to a game store running an event and say hey I want to play in your event but I don't feel like spending money at your store...because that is what you are doing when you regularly play a game with proxies. At home and with friends do what you want, though your minis from another game are not going to have the same size blocks as the trays and therfore will skew the movement distances but hey its your show do what you want.

10 minutes ago, jek said:

I have never seen an official tournament allow this but that may just be my experience. I even remember my friend being told to leave a blood bowl event at a gw store because he used an army by a random company when gw wasnt putting out models. But honestly I kinda feel is messed up to go to a game store running an event and say hey I want to play in your event but I don't feel like spending money at your store...because that is what you are doing when you regularly play a game with proxies. At home and with friends do what you want, though your minis from another game are not going to have the same size blocks as the trays and therfore will skew the movement distances but hey its your show do what you want.

Well it is not allowed at official torunaments but for GW's system there were many tournaments made by the players, they just rented halls and made tournaments and for these those who organized them had to make the rules and many would allow non official miniatures because they themselves were not GW and wanted to have a full tournament.
At GW stores miniatures always had to be 100% Gw or made yourself.

Technically, if you're just playing with your friends in your garage, you can make up any rules you want. Maybe you use some of the official rules but proxy everything with MLP dolls. Maybe you swap all the templates for X-Wing templates. Maybe you just point fingerguns at eachother and yell "bang" and then argue about who shot who first.

If you're playing Runewars, though, rather than "Homebrew Hoedown Version Whatever", you should really own and use all of the official gameplay components. Part of playing the game is supporting the game by actually *buying* the game, after all.

At the end of the day, we're just rolling shaped chunks of plastic and moving little pvc trays around the field, and you can do whatever you want. You could always do whatever you want, and play any game any way you want.

What you *can't* do, is expect anyone to be okay with that if they don't already know it's happening.

If you just want to use whatever figures you have to have a good time, take a look at games like Rogue Stars.

And some would say part of the hobby is also doing what you want, you want use GW parts for a Waiqar conversion go for it, you want to use a Runewars boardgame mini as a champion go for it, you want to use that cool Necromancer that isn't from FFG for your Waiqar go for it. That is the nice thing with the hobby it's yours to do what you want and if I can play the game with someone letting him use his WHF Vampires and print out cards who knows he may actually be the real thing.

I know many GW players that have GW and other miniatures and why not, if you find a cool mini buy it and use it, if you and your friends disliek certain rules change them, for me that's all part of the hobby, heck Mantic even released a book with army lists for WHF armies for which they right now have no models themselves.
I personally have no problem with that as long as you know what to do when you play "offcialy".

And I never said everyone has to be ok with this, that is always something for the group you play with or those who organise the tournament your playing to decide, but I myself are how do I say that, is open the right word?

I would not expect a store to support a game if people are just looking for ways to not buy the product. That is what kills games, I don't care if it hurts people's feelings, if you like what ffg is doing here but don't feel like giving them money because you already have a skeleton horde from game x and just plan on using it with some crap you printed out on the Internet than go play something else. I'm not going to rationalize that I have a crap ton of Pokémon cards so I should just be able to proxy them for magic cuz well they are the same size. So I really down care about your rationalization for why you don't want think you should have go support this game. I have watched a lot of game stores close because people don't support stores and this is just another way to kill off game stores. And I have never in the twenty plus years of playing these games come across people so adamantly against supporting a game they claim to be excited about. If you don't plan on playing the game then just shut up and don't play it. And if you are planning on playing the game with your Mantic or gw or my little ponies model because you don't think you should have to buy into the game because you already have one company money for their undead models why give another company money for their undead models, then you aren't planning on actually playing the game so also shut up and don't play. I'm tired of this rant resurfacing but it never seems to go away...he is the simple fact of miniature games hobby: if you play at a store support that store, if you play a game support that games company, if you don't then soon the game store or game won't exist and it will be partially your fault.

@jek ****.

Really????

Where did i say I do not want to support that game or my local store, please show me and show me where I do rant and show me where I am adamantly against supportinf this game.

For all of your information all of my armies are mostly official figures but I do want to be able to use other miniatures if they are fitting and awesome and I don't mind others doing it or havimg a fitting proxie army like Orcs from Kromlech or Imperial Guard from Victoria Miniatures and yes i would also do a game against WHF Vampires in Runewars if said person would want to test it that way before perhaps buying the real stuff. And I do remember the time when GW had rules for units they didn't even produce so you had to build them yourself or buy them from companies that put out miniatures for that unit or just weapons like the Tyranid Boneswords which GW didn't release for quite some time. And as said for me customising your army is a big part of the hobby and sa there are so many great mniniatures out there I don't see why I should forbid someone using some of them or using them myself.

But thanks for going all offensive on me for things I never said and you know that Pokemon Magic comparison you made was really bad.

Deep breaths everyone.

I think we can all agree that if you need to support a game financially if you expect to play it. And you need to support your FLGS if you expect to play there, don't buy your models on Amazon for ~10% less.

At the same time, it is ok to supplement your collection with cool conversions, alternate models, etc. Players get enjoyment out of different pieces of the hobby. Some enjoy painting. Some enjoy playing. Some enjoy making their army stand out as unique by having something different than everyone else. But there certainly is a difference between having alternate models because it's cool and actively avoiding supporting a company with your $$$.

If you show up and the majority of your models are not official FFG product, don't expect to play anywhere outside of your basement.

The GW situation is a little different, since they did such a poor job of supporting the community. FFG is the polar opposite of that. They send staff around the country to manage official tournaments. They're spending a lot to do this (more than your tournament entry fee covers), and they certainly can expect their participants to be using their product.

With GW, tournaments weren't organized by the company. Just by passionate individuals. And in those cases, your Con Badge or entry fee or whatever made it financially viable for those individuals to host these events. They have no incentive for you to use the official models, so it wasn't ever an issue.

Another thing to consider is that even if someone manages to not purchase a certain model or whatever, there is value to the hype that is being created by them showing up with a cool alternate sculpt. If it keeps more players interested, engaged, and excited about the game, it will indirectly lead to more sales for FFG.

Either way, I think there is a balance between the different aspects of the hobby. There is space for conversions, alternate sculpts, unofficial models, etc. But there is a line somewhere, and I think most people can tell if they are crossing it or not.

16 hours ago, Zetan said:

I think another reason for the mentality you see today is that GW was in a strange position of being (a) the most popular ruleset and (b) not running many official tournaments for a very long time.

Games Workshop has not had the most popular ruleset in years.

No one I know of actually plays 40k, WFB or AoS for the sake of the ruleset. They play it for the fluff, the models and the investment. But no one actually thinks GW makes good rules... Even GW themselves have admitted that they can't write a decent ruleset, and they're really only a model company that happens to produce a set of rules.

16 hours ago, Zetan said:

Getting people back into the mentality of WYSIWYG is not going to be trivial, even though all the big game companies officially require it.

It's not going to be a big issue considering the way the trays work in this game. It's not like you can buy trays separately that you can stick your existing undead army in. So you either buy in and have what you need to play WYSIWYG or you don't buy the game itself.

22 minutes ago, VanorDM said:

Games Workshop has not had the most popular ruleset in years.

No one I know of actually plays 40k, WFB or AoS for the sake of the ruleset. They play it for the fluff, the models and the investment. But no one actually thinks GW makes good rules... Even GW themselves have admitted that they can't write a decent ruleset, and they're really only a model company that happens to produce a set of rules.

It's not going to be a big issue considering the way the trays work in this game. It's not like you can buy trays separately that you can stick your existing undead army in. So you either buy in and have what you need to play WYSIWYG or you don't buy the game itself.

They are not the best ruleset, not by a longshot. But until X Wing came along, they really were the most widely played ruleset, I think. What else came close in terms of popularity.

There is nothing wrong with kit bashing or adding unique weapons to a model but devising you don't want to buy models because you have models from a different game is not that. @Iceeagle85 I didn't say you were not spring the game and I was not attacking you specifically. I was starting that people who don't plan on buying stuff because they plan on just printing dials and cards and using their own models don't really do anything good for the community or the game and it frustrates me intensely. If someone is fine with playing against someone not using game models that's fine but those models aren't going to be the right size of bases and they are going to screw-up that game. That's not someone I would be invested in paying against and they would not be welcome at the stores I play at.that is also not saying that the stores are not welcoming to me players because I have never not been able to find someone willing to teach new players a game using their own models, just that the stores expect you to buy into a game if you are planning to play it and the communities at that store support that belief. Also I liked my Pokémon/magic joke

@jek

Ok then I misunderstood you, you posted directly after me and used you and not beeing a native english speaker I thought that meant me.

I'm sorry, I hope everything is alright now.

8 hours ago, Iceeagle85 said:

@jek

Ok then I misunderstood you, you posted directly after me and used you and not beeing a native english speaker I thought that meant me.

I'm sorry, I hope everything alright now.

No worries

9 hours ago, MysteriousRacerX said:

They are not the best ruleset, not by a longshot. But until X Wing came along, they really were the most widely played ruleset, I think. What else came close in terms of popularity.

ICV2 has kept a tally of such things for years. Here is Fall 2014 - As you can see, Fantasy is no where to be seen. It was dead even then.

Perhaps we should talk about Fall 2015 - again, no Fantasy

Does anyone know if they will make the upgrade cards from future packs available online like they did for X-wing? Then you don't need to buy the expansion packs and just print out the upgrade cards.

WHFB has been struggling for quite a while, but 40k is right there at the top.

Is D&D Attack Wing not considered fantasy? What is it, then?

On 4/2/2017 at 7:57 PM, Tvayumat said:

Technically, if you're just playing with your friends in your garage, you can make up any rules you want. Maybe you use some of the official rules but proxy everything with MLP dolls. Maybe you swap all the templates for X-Wing templates. Maybe you just point fingerguns at eachother and yell "bang" and then argue about who shot who first.

If you're playing Runewars, though, rather than "Homebrew Hoedown Version Whatever", you should really own and use all of the official gameplay components. Part of playing the game is supporting the game by actually *buying* the game, after all.

At the end of the day, we're just rolling shaped chunks of plastic and moving little pvc trays around the field, and you can do whatever you want. You could always do whatever you want, and play any game any way you want.

What you *can't* do, is expect anyone to be okay with that if they don't already know it's happening.

If you just want to use whatever figures you have to have a good time, take a look at games like Rogue Stars.

By the same token, if I'm using descent figures, I've already supported ffg and may like those models better

3 hours ago, Budgernaut said:

Is D&D Attack Wing not considered fantasy? What is it, then?

I gather they are taking about Warhammer Fantasy which was replaced with Age of Sigmar rather than fantasy as a genre.

22 hours ago, MysteriousRacerX said:

But until X Wing came along, they really were the most widely played ruleset, I think.

Based on what? I can tell you for sure, that even before X-Wing 40k was not the most widely played game at my LGS. If we talk about sales, then yes 40k sold the most models but that isn't the same as most played ruleset.

GW has the advantage of being the first mainstream mini company out there, and had very little competition until about 10 years ago or so. So calling them most widely played ruleset means about as much as saying the Superbowl is the Worldwide Football championship. When it's the only game in town of course it's the most widely used.

But it was only a matter of time until something unseated 40k, it's just that FFG discovered the perfect storm of factors with X-Wing.