5 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

It really does help to think of actions as a resource, rather than a window.

I agree on the sentiment. I actually use the word currency since the term resource is already part of the game.

8 hours ago, netherspirit1982 said:

It doesn't matter the order. The end result will be the same. He gains two actions and Ackbar's ability resolves, doing 2 damage.

Ackbar's ability will resolve before he gets to take the actions granted by Rey's ability and Ambush, no matter how they fall in the queue. It's the granting of actions that is in the queue, not the taking of actions.

This.

You flat out won.

On 3/17/2017 at 0:12 PM, netherspirit1982 said:

It doesn't matter the order. The end result will be the same. He gains two actions and Ackbar's ability resolves, doing 2 damage.

Ackbar's ability will resolve before he gets to take the actions granted by Rey's ability and Ambush, no matter how they fall in the queue. It's the granting of actions that is in the queue, not the taking of actions.

On 3/17/2017 at 8:31 PM, Mep said:

This.

You flat out won.

To be fair, that ruling was only ever issued online through unofficial channels. I wouldn't hold it against a judge / TO for not knowing that Lukas responded to an email on Facebook, or whatever. If you only have the printed rules to go off of, then the judge would have been well within his rights to rule either way. I'd still feel cheated if I were the OP, but not by the judge or my opponent.

As far as I understand it, the abilities are all resolved before moving on to the next step. Check win or loose conditions is not an interrupt as Farr as I know

The game immediately ends if all of a player's characters are defeated; the game ends after the upkeep phase only if a player has been milled.

1 hour ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

The game immediately ends if all of a player's characters are defeated; the game ends after the upkeep phase only if a player has been milled.

So are you saying that the person controlling the battlefield says okay you are dead before me then or please explain it

Akbar's ability says when not at the end of the turn, Meaning as soon as

Right, the game would end as soon as Ackbar's ability resolves.

If someone plays a card allowing them to roll in a red character with say ambush it doesn't stop Jango from Rolling In when they roll in, it just means they still get their action before Jango does. I don't see this as being any different

Just now, WonderWAAAGH said:

Right, the game would end as soon as Ackbar's ability resolves.

Good call

2 hours ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

To be fair, that ruling was only ever issued online through unofficial channels. I wouldn't hold it against a judge / TO for not knowing that Lukas responded to an email on Facebook, or whatever. If you only have the printed rules to go off of, then the judge would have been well within his rights to rule either way. I'd still feel cheated if I were the OP, but not by the judge or my opponent.

No No No. You don't hold it against a player for not understand page 13, you do hold it against a judge. Ambush is a big part of this game, as are actions. A judge had better know how those work or find someone who does - so that person can be the judge. Also, judges better have more than the basic printed rules in the starter decks, which is sadly not up to snuff. They need to have the latest online rules and they need to understand them, not making rules up like actions go into the que. Otherwise it affects the outcome of games in a negative way because the judge is not sufficient to his job.

6 minutes ago, Mep said:

No No No. You don't hold it against a player for not understand page 13, you do hold it against a judge. Ambush is a big part of this game, as are actions. A judge had better know how those work or find someone who does - so that person can be the judge. Also, judges better have more than the basic printed rules in the starter decks, which is sadly not up to snuff. They need to have the latest online rules and they need to understand them, not making rules up like actions go into the que. Otherwise it affects the outcome of games in a negative way because the judge is not sufficient to his job.

While I agree with this, minus pulling out the torches. Personally I would take a copy of the rules with and ask every player before we started if they were up on the newest rules

Being such a new game I find a lot of people aren't, which is why it is so important for the judges to be up to date and capable of explaining the rules.

21 minutes ago, Mep said:

No No No. You don't hold it against a player for not understand page 13, you do hold it against a judge. Ambush is a big part of this game, as are actions. A judge had better know how those work or find someone who does - so that person can be the judge. Also, judges better have more than the basic printed rules in the starter decks, which is sadly not up to snuff. They need to have the latest online rules and they need to understand them, not making rules up like actions go into the que. Otherwise it affects the outcome of games in a negative way because the judge is not sufficient to his job.

We've been over this. Both you and Lukas agreed that the rules, as printed, aren't clear enough to convey their intent. You can hold it against the judge for not understanding the RRG, but the RRG isn't 100% sufficient in this case - just like it wasn't when we started talking about Jango in the first place. Literally nothing has changed except that we now have a "Lukas said so" ruling to use as a placeholder for official rules until the next update, and it would be ludicrous in the extreme to expect that all judges / TO's abide by something they're likely not even aware of.

Not so hard to be aware of it. Certainly not all judges are of the same quality, but the sufficient judges would know how additional actions are handled. Hopefully up to date rules come with SoR release. Otherwise we get to go on and on and on about how horrible a person Lukas is for not getting his job done.

The ruling isn't that hard to find for those of us who are aware of its existence, but it may as well have never been issued in the first place for judges who aren't avid forum-goers. For all of the positive press this game gets for its simplicity, it seems silly to say that judges are responsible for doing the kind of exhaustive research it would take to dig up this one particular corner case. You really can't have it both ways.

Is it that exhaustive though? I mean additional actions aren't exactly rare things in this game. Knowing how those are handle is something every judge should know about. Saying FFG does a bad job of communicating is fine. Saying the average player wouldn't know how additional actions are handled because of that bad communication is also fine. Saying it is okay for judges to be ignorant of how the game is played is silly.

I think the main problem is that as the game is so new that the TO and judge for the event can a lot of the time be the same person with often a loose understanding of the rules, potentially a game store employee.

There are few who are as engaged with the game at a sufficient level to know the rules properly ( and even that’s up for debate due to the vagueness of certain rules AKA extra actions "resolving" and actually being used are separate) that are also willing to not play in an event to be able to TO/judge it.

Yes the OP was on the wrong end of an incorrect decision and that is a teething problem when these sorts of intricate rules interactions have yet to receive an official FAQ, which was actually stated to be cleared up by Lukas in the next FAQ, whenever that will arrive.

For now it’s a matter of being happy that there is at least someone willing to give their time to TO/judge our new fledgling game.

2 hours ago, Mep said:

Is it that exhaustive though? I mean additional actions aren't exactly rare things in this game. Knowing how those are handle is something every judge should know about. Saying FFG does a bad job of communicating is fine. Saying the average player wouldn't know how additional actions are handled because of that bad communication is also fine. Saying it is okay for judges to be ignorant of how the game is played is silly.

There's a world of difference between being ignorant of how the game is played and being ignorant of every non-official ruling that gets passed around by email. In this particular case, the judge did the best he could with what he had - the RRG - which even you have admitted isn't clear enough to be to extrapolate Lukas' actual intent from. There's ultimately nothing to go wagging your finger over.

I'll be honest, issuing a draw doesn't sit right with me, but only because there's no allowance for it in the tournament rules. But if I were that judge and I ruled against the OP, and then you showed me this thread after the fact, I'd politely say "okay, thanks. I'll keep an eye out for it in the official rules," and then continue to interpret the RRG as I see fit. I've seen my fair share of developer email rulings get reversed before they make it to print, and I wouldn't lose a minute's sleep over this one. Such is a judge's prerogative.

3 hours ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

There's a world of difference between being ignorant of how the game is played and being ignorant of every non-official ruling that gets passed around by email. In this particular case, the judge did the best he could with what he had - the RRG - which even you have admitted isn't clear enough to be to extrapolate Lukas' actual intent from. There's ultimately nothing to go wagging your finger over.

I'll be honest, issuing a draw doesn't sit right with me, but only because there's no allowance for it in the tournament rules. But if I were that judge and I ruled against the OP, and then you showed me this thread after the fact, I'd politely say "okay, thanks. I'll keep an eye out for it in the official rules," and then continue to interpret the RRG as I see fit. I've seen my fair share of developer email rulings get reversed before they make it to print, and I wouldn't lose a minute's sleep over this one. Such is a judge's prerogative.

It's rare that you and I agree, but here you and I agree

How is a judge supposed to be aware of every ruling, errata, and addendum? Read every post on every forum? They have regular jobs other than judging Destiny tournaments, that's hardly a rational expectation. It's exceptionally easy for something like this to slip past their radar.

56 minutes ago, Network57 said:

It's rare that you and I agree, but here you and I agree

How is a judge supposed to be aware of every ruling, errata, and addendum? Read every post on every forum? They have regular jobs other than judging Destiny tournaments, that's hardly a rational expectation. It's exceptionally easy for something like this to slip past their radar.

I agree.

Just a side note, was there a time slip or was Crack on sale or something?

I mean where did the five angry people come from that seem to be fight to be the top 1%.

I sure hope they get what damage they they are doing

Uh, what?

Sometimes a judge just has to do what he has to do.

For the most part you don't have time to read the rules and FAQ at an event. You try and learn the rules as best you can and apply them as best you can at the time.

So far I go to a weekly tournament and have had no issues with rules. So for the most part the judges have it easy, they score and seed.

I don't know if this was said, but it should go like this:

Action: Rey is equiped with HB

"After" triggers (regardless of who has battlefield):

Rey gains additional action

Ackbar ability deals 2 damage to Rey defeating her

(If Rey had 1 or more health remaining, then she would get to take her additional action)