2 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

The funniest thing is that against ships she is not awesome as squadrons throw 1 blue die. And people is becom crazy about that.

She is lethal against aces and nobody says anything XD

Yea it makes me really want to run Imp aces now. Alpha strikes are even more potent when I can guarantee damage since they can't scatter or brace.

I'm not sure I'd say "lethal". I mean, without her, if you roll an accuracy while attacking an ace you still get to put some damage through. Now, you have the choice of either doing the same as before, or exhausting the token and letting the defender make a second choice (take the damage or lose the token). It's definitely better, but I'd say the biggest boost is still to anti-ship (where TIEs have gone from weak to excellent).

17 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

... WaitWaitWait,

Its okay.

No, I was considering just Squadron Versus Ship Combat.

I was TOTALLY NEGLECTING Squadron Vs ACE SQUADRON combat...

This is My Bad.

Mea Culpa.

Continue to Argue

Ninjad...

8 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

I'm not sure I'd say "lethal". I mean, without her, if you roll an accuracy while attacking an ace you still get to put some damage through. Now, you have the choice of either doing the same as before, or exhausting the token and letting the defender make a second choice (take the damage or lose the token). It's definitely better, but I'd say the biggest boost is still to anti-ship (where TIEs have gone from weak to excellent).

You're of the opinion the defender can spend the exhausted defense token spent by Sloane?

6 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

I'm not sure I'd say "lethal". I mean, without her, if you roll an accuracy while attacking an ace you still get to put some damage through. Now, you have the choice of either doing the same as before, or exhausting the token and letting the defender make a second choice (take the damage or lose the token). It's definitely better, but I'd say the biggest boost is still to anti-ship (where TIEs have gone from weak to excellent).

Yep no lethal but comparing 1 blue die vs 3-5..6 blue dice... well I hope to kill Thycho with 2 attacks... sometimes. Interceptor and boosk damaged as the second attack bye bye!

1 minute ago, Undeadguy said:

You're of the opinion the defender can spend the exhausted defense token spent by Sloane?

Yes... I think the whole rules passage reads weirdly (or breaks the game) unless you read it that way. It's a matter of context, like the "you must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship ".

1 minute ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Yep no lethal but comparing 1 blue die vs 3-5..6 blue dice... well I hope to kill Thycho with 2 attacks... sometimes. Interceptor and boosk damaged as the second attack bye bye!

Sure, TIEs only roll 1 die against ships, and 3-5 against squadrons.

My point is that "1 blue die against ships" goes from very weak to pretty good with Sloane, while "3-5 blue dice against aces" goes from quite good to very good. The improvement given by Sloan is only marginal vs squadrons, but massive vs ships.

12 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

Yes... I think the whole rules passage reads weirdly (or breaks the game) unless you read it that way. It's a matter of context, like the "you must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship ".

But the rules say "A defense token cannot be spent more than once during an attack." which is an absolute. Sloane is spending the token, and it happens during an attack.

I assume your argument is that passage refers to the defender, but I think that is already covered by "The defender cannot spend more than one defense token of each type per attack."

Spending a Redirect will exhaust it, but spending the Redirect again would trigger both rules: spending a token twice, and spending the same type twice.

I don't see how Sloane breaks the game in this context, and I don't know what that passage you quoted has to do with this. We aren't interpreting a portion of a rule.

I've addressed this earlier in the thread.

13 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

I've addressed this earlier in the thread.

Yes and I disagree with your assessment. Your argument hinges on those points applying to only the defender, which they don't.

You're logic is as follows.

Defense tokens can be spent by the defender during the “Spend Defense Tokens” step of an attack to produce the effects described below:

• • The defender cannot spend more than one defense token of each type per attack.
• • A defense token cannot be spent more than once during an attack.
• • Defense tokens can be spent as part of a cost for upgrade card effects. If spent in this way, a defense token does not produce its normal effect.

This interpretation of the rules does not make any sense, because these three rules are not effects. They are limitations on how the tokens can be used. That logic is equivalent to considering the 4 bullet points as part of the steps to move a squadron. They are restrictions on how to move squads.

Squadron Movement

To move a squadron, its owner proceeds through the following steps:

1. 1. Determine Course: Place the range ruler flat on the table with the distance side faceup. The center of the distance 1 end of the ruler must be in contact with the squadron’s base.
2. 2. Move Squadron: Pick up the squadron and position it anywhere along the center of the ruler up to the line that marks the end of the distance band matching the squadron’s speed value. The squadron’s base cannot be placed beyond that line. Then remove the range ruler and place the squadron in the final position.

• • A squadron cannot be placed with any part of its base overlapping another squadron or ship.
• • A squadron can move through ships, squadrons, and obstacles without issue. Only its starting and final positions matter.
• • If the range ruler cannot be placed in the play area due to other ships and squadrons being in the way, hold the range ruler above the play area and estimate the squadron’s final position.
• • When a squadron moves, it can choose to remain in its current position and is still considered to have moved.

The correct interpretation of the defense token is as follows:

Defense tokens can be spent by the defender during the “Spend Defense Tokens” step of an attack to produce the effects described below:

• • Redirect B: The defender chooses one of its hull zones adjacent to the defending hull zone. When the defender suffers damage from this attack, it may suffer any amount of damage on the chosen zone’s shields (up to the shields remaining on that zone) before it must suffer the remaining damage on the defending hull zone.
• • Evade D: At long range, the defender cancels one attack die of its choice. At medium range, it chooses one attack die to be rerolled. At close range or distance 1, this token has no effect.
• • Brace C: When damage is totaled during the “Resolve Damage” step, the total is reduced to half, rounded up.
• • Scatter A: The defender cancels all attack dice.

With the following bullet points describing how to use them. That means Sloane spends the defense tokens and the defender cannot use them, and they still do not generate their intended effect since the defender did not spend them.

I choose #TeamEmerald . And you?

9 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

I choose #TeamEmerald . And you?

#TeamFAQ or #FFGNeedsBetterWriters

But again, I jest - you make a reasonable point.

I still believe that a "with the following limitations" is implied between the first and the second set of bullet points, and that the context of all the bullet points is limited to the spending of tokens by the defender during the spend defense tokens step. I also believe that the reason the second bullet point is worded the way it is is linguistic (because it reads better than a repetition) rather than a deliberate exercise to impose different restrictions than those of the first point. Furthermore, the "absolute" rank of "cannot" only applies to upgrade cards, not to the RRG.

You may very well turn out to be right; these are all arguments based on what is implied , or probably intended , and I realise that it is a little unlike me to support the holistic/RAI view over the narrow/RAW interpretation. I just have no interest in another 20 pages of circular arguments, especially not for such a corner case, and would rather let FFG sort it out.

I'm too lazy to write a Supreme Court brief, but I'm pretty sure the Ace can still spend it's defense token after it has been spent via Sloane.

57 minutes ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

I'm too lazy to write a Supreme Court brief, but I'm pretty sure the Ace can still spend it's defense token after it has been spent via Sloane.

This must be the first time I agree with you on anything .

@Undeadguy , is it too late to switch sides?

1 hour ago, Undeadguy said:

Yes and I disagree with your assessment. Your argument hinges on those points applying to only the defender, which they don't.

You're logic is as follows.

Defense tokens can be spent by the defender during the “Spend Defense Tokens” step of an attack to produce the effects described below:

• • The defender cannot spend more than one defense token of each type per attack.
• • A defense token cannot be spent more than once during an attack.
• • Defense tokens can be spent as part of a cost for upgrade card effects. If spent in this way, a defense token does not produce its normal effect.

This interpretation of the rules does not make any sense, because these three rules are not effects. They are limitations on how the tokens can be used. That logic is equivalent to considering the 4 bullet points as part of the steps to move a squadron. They are restrictions on how to move squads.

Squadron Movement

To move a squadron, its owner proceeds through the following steps:

1. 1. Determine Course: Place the range ruler flat on the table with the distance side faceup. The center of the distance 1 end of the ruler must be in contact with the squadron’s base.
2. 2. Move Squadron: Pick up the squadron and position it anywhere along the center of the ruler up to the line that marks the end of the distance band matching the squadron’s speed value. The squadron’s base cannot be placed beyond that line. Then remove the range ruler and place the squadron in the final position.

• • A squadron cannot be placed with any part of its base overlapping another squadron or ship.
• • A squadron can move through ships, squadrons, and obstacles without issue. Only its starting and final positions matter.
• • If the range ruler cannot be placed in the play area due to other ships and squadrons being in the way, hold the range ruler above the play area and estimate the squadron’s final position.
• • When a squadron moves, it can choose to remain in its current position and is still considered to have moved.

The correct interpretation of the defense token is as follows:

Defense tokens can be spent by the defender during the “Spend Defense Tokens” step of an attack to produce the effects described below:

• • Redirect B: The defender chooses one of its hull zones adjacent to the defending hull zone. When the defender suffers damage from this attack, it may suffer any amount of damage on the chosen zone’s shields (up to the shields remaining on that zone) before it must suffer the remaining damage on the defending hull zone.
• • Evade D: At long range, the defender cancels one attack die of its choice. At medium range, it chooses one attack die to be rerolled. At close range or distance 1, this token has no effect.
• • Brace C: When damage is totaled during the “Resolve Damage” step, the total is reduced to half, rounded up.
• • Scatter A: The defender cancels all attack dice.

With the following bullet points describing how to use them. That means Sloane spends the defense tokens and the defender cannot use them, and they still do not generate their intended effect since the defender did not spend them.

Spent by DEFENDER.

So the whole section is irrelevant for SloanE.

Just now, DiabloAzul said:

This must be the first time I agree with you on anything .

@Undeadguy , is it too late to switch sides?

If its any consolation, I bro-hugged him earlier.

... But I think the both of you are wrong in allowing it.

Universal Balance Restored.

(I understand why you do, its just unsupported by RAW the way I see it. Intention? Totally a discussion to be had...)

6 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

If its any consolation, I bro-hugged him earlier.

You bro-hugged TheEasternKing.

I agreed with Warlord Zepnick .

Holy crap - what's the world coming to?

59 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

You bro-hugged TheEasternKing.

I agreed with Warlord Zepnick .

Holy crap - what's the world coming to?

1 hour ago, Green Knight said:

Spent by DEFENDER.

So the whole section is irrelevant for SloanE.

Defense tokens can be spent by the defender during the “Spend Defense Tokens” step of an attack to produce the effects described below:

Defender spends them for an effect. The other rules apply restrictions to how tokens are spent.

My feeling... slone spends the defence token (making it spent if ready or removed if already spent) during the modify dice step. The defender then gets to spend any tokens they have left during the spend defence token step.

now the question is if I get two Acuracies can I spend them on the same token twice to discard a single token or must it be a different tokens in each attack?

15 minutes ago, slasher956 said:

My feeling... slone spends the defence token (making it spent if ready or removed if already spent) during the modify dice step. The defender then gets to spend any tokens they have left during the spend defence token step.

now the question is if I get two Acuracies can I spend them on the same token twice to discard a single token or must it be a different tokens in each attack?

An easy one:

A “when” effect occurs at the moment that the specified event occurs and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

Dolt .... that's a case of RTFM.....

6 minutes ago, slasher956 said:

Dolt .... that's a case of RTFM.....

Don't blame yourself. It is easy to miss this things between all the rules.

I play armada since the release of the core set and I think I know the rules very well but there is no week I don't read something again.

OP here,

happy to resolve it as the consensus here that being those dot points fall under the Defender Defense Token Step.

I guess if we take it the way i proposed initially it would open up the possibility of not being able to use Sloanes ability against a ship at Speed 0 as well hah.