I'm an Imperial player, who likes flying Star Destroyers. So tend to run big-ship-heavy lists. With lots of fighters, sometimes, but generally lots of POINTS in fighters anyway.

Opponent I've been playing lately is running a Rebel MSU list, and this has made objectives...

Well, it seems like only my blue one is getting picked, any more.

In 'big ship' vs 'MSU' battles, there are a LOT of great options for me in the red or yellow objectives, so he takes one look at those and it's, like, 'obviously not that one - nope...annnnd, no way on this other one' ...and we end up with the blue objective. Which is, effectively, just a wash. The best I've so far found seems to be Solar Corona...in that it's boring, doesn't do much for me at all, but at least does not outright HELP the first player the way the rest of the blue objectives seem to do when it's MSU vs Star Destroyer time.

Soooo...what am I missing? Tactics, surely? But what blue objective seems to work best in that matchup for the second player?

Any reason you can't use Superior Positions? Lots of points, deployment advantage, what's not to love?

26 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Any reason you can't use Superior Positions? Lots of points, deployment advantage, what's not to love?

Because a gaggle of CR90s or MC30s blasting across the table at speed 4 usually end up behind your Star Destroyers on turn, like, *2* or something, and then just circle around back there making "ka-ching!, ka-ching!, ka-ching!" noises the rest of the game?

When I fly MSU lists I love Superior Positions. Not a good objective for an ISD list.

Just now, xanderf said:

Because a gaggle of CR90s or MC30s blasting across the table at speed 4 usually end up behind your Star Destroyers on turn, like, *2* or something, and then just circle around back there making "ka-ching!, ka-ching!, ka-ching!" noises the rest of the game?

If they're already behind you, you have bigger problems.

Also, taking deployment advantage away from MC30's in particular is super painful.

Assuming they brought minimal squadron cover and yours have some punch... Use your SP positioning to buy space and draw out the fight, spreading his ships across the board and giving your squadrons time to whittle the small ships down before engaging.

Alternatively, if you're just that set against SP, pack a Lambda or two and go to town on him with Minefields. Four-hull MC30's just love minefields.

6 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Alternatively, if you're just that set against SP, pack a Lambda or two and go to town on him with Minefields. Four-hull MC30's just love minefields.

I've considered minefields, but haven't tried that, yet. Concern I have around it is seeing how his ships handle regular obstacles. At speed 4, on small bases, they basically seem to just ignore them - hopping from one side to the other, without issue. (I do so miss the rule from X-Wing that the template matters for maneuvering - that would help against MSU lists A LOT !)

Do you find minefields effective in that case, without the 'strategic' units? Or is it really those guys that are required to make it work?

4 minutes ago, xanderf said:

I've considered minefields, but haven't tried that, yet. Concern I have around it is seeing how his ships handle regular obstacles. At speed 4, on small bases, they basically seem to just ignore them - hopping from one side to the other, without issue. (I do so miss the rule from X-Wing that the template matters for maneuvering - that would help against MSU lists A LOT !)

Do you find minefields effective in that case, without the 'strategic' units? Or is it really those guys that are required to make it work?

You really want Strategic to shuffle them around, imo--take the decisions away from him. Even if you just deny him space, it's effective.

4 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

You really want Strategic to shuffle them around, imo--take the decisions away from him. Even if you just deny him space, it's effective.

I'd be curious to see actual results of that matchup...player-1 MSU in a minefield vs player-2 Star Destroyers with shuttles - it just seems a stretch to me. A single Lambda is going to run as much (about) as two TIE Fighter squadrons or even a TIE Defender squadron. I know what kind of damage output I can expect from them, but Lambdas just don't put that much out - and I'm not sure I believe the points gained (or minimal damage done) by moving objectives around quite counters that...

Lambdas have low punch, heavy can't stop a bomber alpha.

I've been asking this question too.

You're not taking Lambdas for their punch. Consider if they get you one or two victory tokens from a mission, they've earned their own points back already.

You'll want to choose the right mission with them. To me, that's sensor net, Intel Sweep, or Salvage Run. Your 15-30 point investment should easily earn you 75-150+ points back. Are 2-4 TIEs going to do that?

Navigational hazards since you have more hull?

I run Dangerous Territory on my dual ISD list. In tournament games, it has been picked in 12/15 games I have been second player, with the rest being Contested Outpost.

I like it because it lets my big ships manoeuvre more easily, I can land on use obstacles to obstruct and protect my weak arcs if needed. This is great vs Cracken especially.

The opponent then gets dealt damage and crits (if they want the free points) which can be tough to deal with on small ships lists, because as daft as it sounds, not everyone has Jaina's in rebel MSUs. Even if they do, that ship is occupied for half the rounds, picking up tokens.

I have to admit, I haven't spent a huge amount of time with the new blue objectives, so I can't say its still the best, but it was certainly the best fit for me before.

Edit: It is also immune to strategic, so that helps when you don't have a Lambda.

5 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Lambdas have low punch, heavy can't stop a bomber alpha.

I've been asking this question too.

In the current situation, Lambdas can be useful. CR90s and MC30s tend to run low squads.

Solar Corona all day is my recommendation. MSU fleets lose their deployment advantage, don't really know how to orient themselves so it can be hard to coordinate an all-fleet attack on turn 2 or so, and with numerous smaller attacks the accuracy-killer downside can be more crippling than with less numerous larger attacks.

3 hours ago, Snipafist said:

Solar Corona all day is my recommendation. MSU fleets lose their deployment advantage, don't really know how to orient themselves so it can be hard to coordinate an all-fleet attack on turn 2 or so, and with numerous smaller attacks the accuracy-killer downside can be more crippling than with less numerous larger attacks.

FWIW, my opponent picked up the 'how to' on that one pretty early. Just set up in the dead center of the board, facing the opposite site. So whichever side is the corona...doesn't matter.

My recommendation would be minefields. Set up in a corner and place all the mines in the center-opposite corner from you to block off that flank. If you have shuttles, they can dance in the minefield to push fringe collisions into real collisions.

The counter play I think is to be coy and stay out of range, but once they're committed you start moving up.

6 hours ago, TheCallum said:

I run Dangerous Territory on my dual ISD list. In tournament games, it has been picked in 12/15 games I have been second player, with the rest being Contested Outpost.

I like it because it lets my big ships manoeuvre more easily, I can land on use obstacles to obstruct and protect my weak arcs if needed. This is great vs Cracken especially.

The opponent then gets dealt damage and crits (if they want the free points) which can be tough to deal with on small ships lists, because as daft as it sounds, not everyone has Jaina's in rebel MSUs. Even if they do, that ship is occupied for half the rounds, picking up tokens.

This is one I've considered, and I do *certainly* appreciate the lack of obstacles doing damage to my own ships - some concerns on this one, though.

For one, if the enemy IS committed to those objectives, it's free points for him. And 'free points' are not something that sits well with me - the MSU list tends to be played VERY cautiously, and so our games tend to be low-scoring on either side. Think we hit a max in our last game of 90-90 (he basically tries to dance around outside of range of my big ships, picking off my squadrons or Gozantis). Usually the games end more like 30-40 pts to a side.

So throwing a bunch of free points out on the table, easier to score for faster ships than my own...I dunno, I'm not sure I'm a fan.

28 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

My recommendation would be minefields. Set up in a corner and place all the mines in the center-opposite corner from you to block off that flank. If you have shuttles, they can dance in the minefield to push fringe collisions into real collisions.

The counter play I think is to be coy and stay out of range, but once they're committed you start moving up.

Hrm, yeah, I guess I'd been thinking about them spread out a bit...like, trying to put them in opposite corners and making a channel down the middle of the map he has to travel down, but it seemed like this would not be effective as 6 mines/obstacles is just too easy to maneuver around. But clumping them ALL in one spot in the map.... maybe . That just might be dense enough to work...

1 hour ago, xanderf said:

FWIW, my opponent picked up the 'how to' on that one pretty early. Just set up in the dead center of the board, facing the opposite site. So whichever side is the corona...doesn't matter.

So why aren't you setting up on a flank pointing at him with the corona at your back? That's how the objective is supposed to be played and it makes his ships on the far end of his central deployment have to crawl over his closer ships to get to you.

6 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

In the current situation, Lambdas can be useful. CR90s and MC30s tend to run low squads.

5 hours ago, Snipafist said:

Solar Corona all day is my recommendation. MSU fleets lose their deployment advantage, don't really know how to orient themselves so it can be hard to coordinate an all-fleet attack on turn 2 or so, and with numerous smaller attacks the accuracy-killer downside can be more crippling than with less numerous larger attacks.

Both of these put you at severe disadvantage and no advantage from your choice vs mass squadrons. That's a no go.

19 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Both of these put you at severe disadvantage and no advantage from your choice vs mass squadrons. That's a no go.

He said MSU, not squadrons. MSU runs low squadrons usually.

30 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Both of these put you at severe disadvantage and no advantage from your choice vs mass squadrons. That's a no go.

Holy **** man, not every fleet needs to be built to deal with 134 of bombers stacked with 2 BCC and Yavaris.

14 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

Holy **** man, not every fleet needs to be built to deal with 134 of bombers stacked with 2 BCC and Yavaris.

Oh yes it does.

10 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Oh yes it does.

At that point, what is the point in playing if you're so paranoid about a coordinated bomber alpha strike, which can kill an untouched ISD according to you? Why bother trying to build a fleet if bomber fleets are so OP? I'm getting conflicting opinions from you.

Bombers are are so strong there is nothing you can do without hamstringing your fleet so badly that literally any other fleet will beat you if you try to win the squad game against bombers, but if I don't build to face 134 points of bombers what's the point in playing because I'll lose 10-1 to it.

I like hearing your thoughts on squadrons, despite what other people may think of them. You have valid concerns for the state of Armada and I think we both agree that FFG is going a bit crazy with the squads. That said, you need to enjoy the game like everyone else. Stop obsessing over squads and acknowledge that fleets can be built for other things.

On 03/16/2017 at 6:27 PM, xanderf said:

I've considered minefields, but haven't tried that, yet. Concern I have around it is seeing how his ships handle regular obstacles. At speed 4, on small bases, they basically seem to just ignore them - hopping from one side to the other, without issue. (I do so miss the rule from X-Wing that the template matters for maneuvering - that would help against MSU lists A LOT !)

Do you find minefields effective in that case, without the 'strategic' units? Or is it really those guys that are required to make it work?

Confirmed minefields is a beast with strategic... I had 3vcx when I tried it, no fct, and moving mines into my opponents path was a breeze... Untouched Arquitens tripped 3 mines and took 6 straight to the hull

MSU? Multiple small units?