Even without changing how you count sloops/trolls, if you add the upsilon and keep use your numbers otherwise, you end up with 28 turn arounds for 19 ships, which is only 1.47, not 1.75 like your original said

All of your fine argument aside, the OP is correct. There is more green out there these days and there is power creep. Power creep is, as I have learned from a past full of 40K playing, a symptom of companies needing to continue to make money. I think it just needs accepting folks. FFG could release a new product that includes an errata document and a green Sharpie shaped like a lightsabre perhaps?

For many decades I considered Boba's Slave I as a marvel ship to maneuver and quite nimble. 4 greens. Now look at a Lancer. 7 greens. UPS... same number of greens that Slave I.

New movement options are good to the game. Someday we will see X Wing 2.0 and older ships will perform Talons and Segnors. We have modified many aspects of the game...not dials. No intention to open that box. Labeled as Dangerous.

7 minutes ago, Hexdot said:

For many decades I considered Boba's Slave I as a marvel ship to maneuver and quite nimble. 4 greens. Now look at a Lancer. 7 greens. UPS... same number of greens that Slave I.

New movement options are good to the game. Someday we will see X Wing 2.0 and older ships will perform Talons and Segnors. We have modified many aspects of the game...not dials. No intention to open that box. Labeled as Dangerous.

Some ships have a lot of greens because they SHOULD have them, not simply because of dial creep. The lancer for instance, is a pursuit craft. It's basically a large base version of ships like the a-wing and interceptor

I mean, it has two engines which are longer than it's main body, it should have some gofast.

And UPS is so pilot friendly as Slave I. Because we have seen on screen that the UPS moves like one FS 31. 4 Greens each.

Of course the respective Dials are quite different. But in my opinion the Slave deserves more greens than the UPS. Lancer is a fast Large ship and it must be so. But 7 greens vs 4 is quite power creep, or I think so. Move fast is one thing and move green another. A MiG 25 deserves fast moves. But few greens. Big engines too.

If other players think the dials are OK, no problem about this. My opinion only.

1 hour ago, Khyros said:

It extends beyond the greens though. At one point you could only K turn, and it was red, then it was white, then there were red sloops, then there were red trolls, now there are white sloops... The game keeps adding maneuvers to ships and giving ships better dials. And you're not really paying for these new moves. Take the TIE/LN and the TIE/FO, for 3 points, you're gaining a shield, green 2 turns, red 2 sloops, the TL action, the tech slot, and you only lose the red 3 K. I would argue that the loss of the 3K (but maintaining the 4k) is about on par for adding the green turns, which means you've added at least 1 point worth of dial (2 sloops), and probably at least 1 point of slot/action, which means you're paying one point for the shield. I'd call that power creep. Short of the ability to fit 8 into a squad (or 7 with one being HR), the /FO is hands down better than the /LN for only 3 points more.

On a ship like the TIE Fighter, its low price is its selling point. The 15 points you spend on a PS1 Epsilon Squad could have gotten you a Black Squad TIE with Crackshot. 4 Epsilons get you 5 Academy Pilots. Its really only when you start getting into the TIE Fighters that are 20ish points or more than that what you get for those 3 points starts to make a big difference in most people's decision making.

8 minutes ago, Hexdot said:

And UPS is so pilot friendly as Slave I. Because we have seen on screen that the UPS moves like one FS 31. 4 Greens each.

Of course the respective Dials are quite different. But in my opinion the Slave deserves more greens than the UPS. Lancer is a fast Large ship and it must be so. But 7 greens vs 4 is quite power creep, or I think so. Move fast is one thing and move green another. A MiG 25 deserves fast moves. But few greens. Big engines too.

If other players think the dials are OK, no problem about this. My opinion only.

Same number of greens doesn't mean 2 ships fly the same. Reds and overall maneuvers matter too. The upsilon may have as many greens as a firespray, but it has only 1 speed hard turns that aren't red, no 4 straight, and no k-turn, which will make a big difference in how it actually flies. Also, no auxiliary arc, which ALSO makes a big difference on how a ship flies if you're going to compare the dials

I do recall pre-Raider that the TIE Advanced was loathed for the poor dial that it had more than anything else. Vader needed more greens to PTL and had to avoid the one move it had to face the other direction quickly like the plague. Took the x1 title and either EU or TIEMkII to get it back on the table. Would the Advanced need all that if it had access to something like a T roll or S loop or had the extra green already in the dial? x1 title would still be likely, but what other mods would be popular if you were slipping around like Vader did in Rebels?

If there was anything that FFG had to plan out long-term, it was the dials. This game almost would have benefited from having universal dials and a codex system (*shudder* just had some WG PTSD) rather than individual dials for each ship. Even if it were a free online version that you could print out for the fighters of your squadron, it would allow FFG to weigh each fighter against each other and make changes to bring older fighters in line with newer ideas. You'd have to be more careful when setting your dials, but you wouldn't need to have dozens of them in your storage and wouldn't be cursing if your dog managed to use half of them as chewing toys or experiments for your toddler's flushing adventures.

I agree that the mechanics creep has effected the dials of new verses older ships. I believe that is the primary reason the new waves make up the majority of the meta. To see if a ship is meta viable all you have to do is see if the dial is good enough to run PTL or not. If a ship has few greens and no green hard turns it is probably not playable currently.

1 hour ago, Hexdot said:

And UPS is so pilot friendly as Slave I. Because we have seen on screen that the UPS moves like one FS 31. 4 Greens each.

Of course the respective Dials are quite different. But in my opinion the Slave deserves more greens than the UPS. Lancer is a fast Large ship and it must be so. But 7 greens vs 4 is quite power creep, or I think so. Move fast is one thing and move green another. A MiG 25 deserves fast moves. But few greens. Big engines too.

If other players think the dials are OK, no problem about this. My opinion only.

It's not just your opinion, I just think that the newer dials better reflect the mechanics of the game currently. Older dials don't necessarily meet the current expected design parameters as well.

But I think it's also a false connection to simply compare the number of greens. 4 greens for the UPS and the FS31is not the whole story. How many reds? What kind of maneuvers are possible? I'd rather have the Firespray dial than the UPS dial personally.

Jacob

51 minutes ago, jkokura said:

It's not just your opinion, I just think that the newer dials better reflect the mechanics of the game currently. Older dials don't necessarily meet the current expected design parameters as well.

But I think it's also a false connection to simply compare the number of greens. 4 greens for the UPS and the FS31is not the whole story. How many reds? What kind of maneuvers are possible? I'd rather have the Firespray dial than the UPS dial personally.

Jacob

Now you've got me wanting to try playing a Firespray with the Uplsilon dial. In general, I agree with you about the relative quality of the dial but I think that on the Firespray in particular having a one speed turn and a stop on the dial might be better than a 4 straight and a pair of K-Turns.

I'm cool with it. Stress creating effects make named T65s and B Wings really hard to field, as with low AGI, they NEED their actions to be worth the points. A tanky ship with low agility is only good if it can consistently pack heavy damage before it dies, so TL and Focus need to happen. Good flying used to solve some of these problems, but with so many ways to hand out stress I think we need some greens. This keeps new ships resistant to that.

=IF('newshipdial' >= 'JumpMaster5000', BROKEN
IF('newshipdial' >= 'YT-2400', POWERCREEP
IF('newshipdial' =< 'Lambda-Class Shuttle', BURNFFG, FINE)))

U wings are bulky compared to YT-1300?

Would there be a way to quantify dials numerically? Figure out the approximate worth of a movement compared to the others and get a 'dial value' for each ship? Not sure how you would value a straight white 4 vs. a 3 bank, but quantifying them would at least allow an objective comparison.

It seems to me that the opinions here may lack a possibility. It is certainly a possibility that the dials are a function of creep. But it's also a possibility that better dials are design improvement. Perhaps the early dials were simply massively underpowered as opposed to the newer dials being overpowered. I would vastly prefer an upgrade to older dials than newer dials sucking as bad as some of the older dials. Dials should reflect the ship type and it's abilities but I'm all for better dials.