TLT...give extra green dice R3. Simple and easy. Still very good upgrade, No OP.

Blaster Turret. Erase "Attack Focus" and the need to discard one. 4 pts. Dorsal Turret rolls 3 Reds at R1 and 2 Reds R2 for 3 pts. Balanced. Also compared to Sync Turret.

So 6 turrets, all 6 playable.

Interesting. I quite like the suggested changes. How much play testing did y'all do?

Changed blaster perhaps one month after HWK launch. TLT weeks before K Wings. So quite tested

I don;t think the TLT fix you propose would go far enough TBH. I like the idea of limiting the second shot to satisfying some condition, that someone suggested in another thread. That suggestion was 'if you have a target lock on the target, perform this attack twice' but on reflection, what I'd really like to see is 'against a target in your firing arc, PTAT'. Screws Kavil something fierce, but he's the only really meaningful casualty.

When fixing things we avoid too harsh nerfs. As we play mostly scenario we are safe from the 100/6 quad Y TLT experience. Perhaps we see this in Double Epic...not dramatic.

R3 is a quite vast area. +1 green helps. And we know that TLT continues as the best turret. But not so OP.

tbh i think turrets in general should have just added +1 defense dice if out of arc to begin with.

The issue isnt they have full 360 access, even if its full range and/or has a donut where it cant shoot, its that theres 0 penalty for using the "out of arc" unless its one of the few ships that can actually use autos. Similar to how i would much prefer a dial have a ton of reds than not having the maneuver at all, the ability to fire out of arc even if its limited is powerful on its own.

If only part of the ships deployed are turret equiped this is not so bad. If you play 4 vs 4 ships and all your rivals can fire 360 degree... not good.

If your rival deploys 4 X, 2 B, 2 A and 4 Y (2 TLT plus 2 Ion Turrets) the game is simply...better. Epic with common sense is GREAT

6 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

tbh i think turrets in general should have just added +1 defense dice if out of arc to begin with.

The issue isnt they have full 360 access, even if its full range and/or has a donut where it cant shoot, its that theres 0 penalty for using the "out of arc" unless its one of the few ships that can actually use autos. Similar to how i would much prefer a dial have a ton of reds than not having the maneuver at all, the ability to fire out of arc even if its limited is powerful on its own.

My favoured fix has always been that shots out of arc are treated as obstructed.

I think soft nerf to TLT that you did is exactly what FFG needs, and hopefully will do. As their latest FAQ stated, the designers hate cards that kill choices, and no matter how good a turret is that is priced between 1-5, if you can take TLT, you'll just take TLT. If you don't have the money, take Autoblaster. We're done. This is not interesting decision making. So FFG works hard to make a 4 pt turret that we can use, but TLT is just so good that there's no reason to try to fight the TL clause on the Synched turret when you can just throw tons of dice at people with TLT. The cool thing is that with this nerf, they don't even need to change the card, just add a clause in the FAQ that says: "When attacking with a turret primary weapon, the defender may add their range bonus." Done. Since TLT is the only one this applies to, it works. When you consider that Ion turret is only 1 point less, man do you get alot for that 1 point with TLT. WIth this nerf, maybe, just maybe it would be enough to allow the other turrets to be choices. But for now, a turret like Synched turret is DOA, not because it is a bad upgrade, but because TLTs are too good for the price and shove everything else out of the market. Hopefully they will make the change you suggest.

As for Blaster turret, I do find it odd that FFG is so scared of creating a small PWT turret card, so they feel the need to add tons of weird clauses to make the turret practically unusable. When I first saw Synched turret, I didn't see the TL clause, and I thought they had finally come around and figured out how to make a 4 pt turret (since both Dorsal and Blaster are overcosted probably by 1 point for what they do), but instead they may have made the same mistake they made with Blaster turret. So I agree that Blaster needs a change, but my suggestion would be to keep the Attack: Focus part, but no need to discard. This would still allow counterplay, like bumping, to shut down the turret, but I didn't play test it like you did, so trust your playtesting.

Honestly, just one green die about 2/3 of the time, really isn't enough. THe only people it really helps are the 3-agi token stackers who become a lot more liekly to dodge both shots. anything 2 agi or worse is still likely to take 1.5 to 2 damage per firing, and one and 0 agi still get shredded.

51 minutes ago, Hexdot said:

TLT...give extra green dice R3. Simple and easy. Still very good upgrade, No OP.

Blaster Turret. Erase "Attack Focus" and the need to discard one. 4 pts. Dorsal Turret rolls 3 Reds at R1 and 2 Reds R2 for 3 pts. Balanced. Also compared to Sync Turret.

So 6 turrets, all 6 playable.

So....blaster turret is now way better than synced turret since it's the same number of dice and no token required to fire it? I would literally never take Synced Turret if blaster turret requires no tokens, since if you have the TL to fire sync turret, a blaster turret could just take the same TL and spend it to reroll instead of using synced turrest ability to reroll in arc. And without requiring a token, there's no risk of stress or bumping blocking you from shooting.

The Ion Turret is very, very good. We feel that if you are required a Focus token to fire it could be inferior to this. And when playing with design your own squad most players invest 5 pts Ion happily and no 4 pts Blaster, so in my opinion this boost to Blaster Turrets is OK. But the requisite to be Focused is interesting to me.

Thanks a lot for your ideas

I think the blaster turret would be fine (and balanced with synced) if you simply had to have the focus to fire it, but not spend. Still worth taking over ion potentially because it has more damage potential, and synced is still fairly balanced because while it gets extra rerolls if they're in arc, it's more limited since you can't choose to shoot a different target once the combat phase hits, you have to shoot at whoever you locked.

Without even needing to have a token for blaster, you might as well change synced turret to not require a token to fire either, or it'll never get used.

5 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Honestly, just one green die about 2/3 of the time, really isn't enough. THe only people it really helps are the 3-agi token stackers who become a lot more liekly to dodge both shots. anything 2 agi or worse is still likely to take 1.5 to 2 damage per firing, and one and 0 agi still get shredded.

I disagree. T-70s love the extra die, especially if they have Autothrusters, but even without it they are grateful. I mean, my TIE strikers were really happy they had Lightweight Frame against two TLTs in a squad. It didn't help all the time, but it made a difference sometimes. We're not trying to erase TLTs, we're trying to make them balanced, and increase interesting decision making.

I'll go ahead and share this here, too: Why don't you get your range 3 defense bonus against cannon and turret secondary weapons? Shouldn't missiles and torpedoes be the only ones that deny that bonus die since they home in on a target? This would fundamentally change a lot of cards, potentially making TIE/D a lot less attractive, unfortunately, but it solves TLT without along with a few others I struggle with *cough*Dash*cough*. It's just something I've been mulling over for the last few weeks. When this game first came out, the only secondary weapons that could shoot at range 3 were missiles and torpedoes. Then, in wave 2, they introduced Heavy Laser Cannon and Ion Cannon, and I couldn't understand why you wouldn't get your range bonus against such weapons. This would almost certainly increase the value of ordnance. Like I said, just a thought. I'm not certain they should actually change it to this ruling, because of all the unintended consequences. I just sort of went, "Huh," when this thought came to me, and I wanted to share it.

2 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

So....blaster turret is now way better than synced turret since it's the same number of dice and no token required to fire it? I would literally never take Synced Turret if blaster turret requires no tokens, since if you have the TL to fire sync turret, a blaster turret could just take the same TL and spend it to reroll instead of using synced turrest ability to reroll in arc. And without requiring a token, there's no risk of stress or bumping blocking you from shooting.

IMHO you are wrong in one vital aspect.

With Blaster you can fire 3 Reds R1-2 allways.

With Sync you need a TL, no need to expend it, and you can reroll 2 or 3 dices firing into arc.

Needs TL, Reroll within Arc. Or no requisite and no free rerolls. I think this is balanced. A titled Y Wing will hardly choose Blaster to fire his turret forward only.

Six turrets, six options. Same cost. Same Reds. Same Range. One with no requisites. Synch needs TL but rerolls dices. Clear as water to me. Only my opinion.

5 turrets playtested. Of course Synch not.

2 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

Why don't you get your range 3 defense bonus against cannon and turret secondary weapons?

If Cannons and Turrets allowed the range three defense bonus, should they also allow the range one attack bonus?

Just now, WWHSD said:

If Cannons and Turrets allowed the range three defense bonus, should they also allow the range one attack bonus?

Sure! Why not! ....wait.

1 minute ago, WWHSD said:

If Cannons and Turrets allowed the range three defense bonus, should they also allow the range one attack bonus?

Autoblasters would like to talk with you on why not

dorsal turret says "I already get that"

Just now, Hexdot said:

IMHO you are wrong in one vital aspect.

With Blaster you can fire 3 Reds R1-2 allways.

With Sync you need a TL, no need to expend it, and you can reroll 2 or 3 dices firing into arc.

Needs TL, Reroll within Arc. Or no requisite and no free rerolls. I think this is balanced. A titled Y Wing will hardly choose Blaster to fire his turret forward only.

Six turrets, six options. Same cost. Same Reds. Same Range. One with no requisites. Synch needs TL but rerolls dices. Clear as water to me. Only my opinion.

5 turrets playtested. Of course Synch not.

Personally I'd never use synced turret. The rerolls aren't worth the TL requirement when you have the option for another turret that has no requirement. If I have a blaster turret, I can Target Lock someone, and if I need rerolls, I can just...spend the Target Lock. Or if my TLed ship ends up out of range, or I'd rather shoot someone else, I can just...shoot someone else. A synced turret CAN'T change targets. Or I can just focus for my action, and I can still fire the turret and modify with a focus. Or if I have vectored thrusters and a Barrel Roll would be a better option, I can roposition and still fire my turret. And I can fire it when I do a red maneuver. Or bump. Or fly over a rock. Or anything esle that prevents me from having a target lock. Free rerolls in arc isn't enough to justify taking a turret that's worse in every other possible way.

Autoblasters...totally OP this way. But the idea of Mango giving you +1 Red R1 and +1 Green R3 not bad. Mango MK2. Enhanced rate of fire...but worse long range precision.

And thanks for your opinion VanderLegion. Very well argued. As said before in my opinion balanced. But of course never tested Synch. Many months till Wave 11 release and with some exceptions we do not use upgrades till we can touch the new cards. Thanks a lot, it is a pleasure to post here.

6 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

I disagree. T-70s love the extra die, especially if they have Autothrusters, but even without it they are grateful. I mean, my TIE strikers were really happy they had Lightweight Frame against two TLTs in a squad. It didn't help all the time, but it made a difference sometimes. We're not trying to erase TLTs, we're trying to make them balanced, and increase interesting decision making.

I'll go ahead and share this here, too: Why don't you get your range 3 defense bonus against cannon and turret secondary weapons? Shouldn't missiles and torpedoes be the only ones that deny that bonus die since they home in on a target? This would fundamentally change a lot of cards, potentially making TIE/D a lot less attractive, unfortunately, but it solves TLT without along with a few others I struggle with *cough*Dash*cough*. It's just something I've been mulling over for the last few weeks. When this game first came out, the only secondary weapons that could shoot at range 3 were missiles and torpedoes. Then, in wave 2, they introduced Heavy Laser Cannon and Ion Cannon, and I couldn't understand why you wouldn't get your range bonus against such weapons. This would almost certainly increase the value of ordnance. Like I said, just a thought. I'm not certain they should actually change it to this ruling, because of all the unintended consequences. I just sort of went, "Huh," when this thought came to me, and I wanted to share it.

I agree 100% , but also agree that since there are so many cannons in the game, and that all of them would be either nerfed/buffed by becoming essentially primary weapons, it probably would have too much side effects. With the turrets, however, there is only 1 that fits the rule at this point, and we know it needs a slight nerf (really, costing it to 7 would probably be enough, as that would kill off quad TLT with UA, as they would lose their UA, which is a big loss for that squad) but since FFG will NEVER change prices (PLEASE change Rhymer to 23, PLEASE!) the soft nerf of the extra die are range 3 for turret secondaries I think would solve it, and they can just account for it in the future if they make any more Range 2-3 turrets.

And synced being better than blsater if neither requires a token is why I suggested blaster still requiring a focus, but not having to spend it. Then blaster is more flexible, but synced givesthe extra rerolls in arc. Or you go ion for the same range with no limit on firing, but only 1 max damage (plus ion token). Synced could take deadeye to work same as blaster for a point more, but get extra rerolls as a bonus.

8 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Personally I'd never use synced turret. The rerolls aren't worth the TL requirement when you have the option for another turret that has no requirement. If I have a blaster turret, I can Target Lock someone, and if I need rerolls, I can just...spend the Target Lock. Or if my TLed ship ends up out of range, or I'd rather shoot someone else, I can just...shoot someone else. A synced turret CAN'T change targets. Or I can just focus for my action, and I can still fire the turret and modify with a focus. Or if I have vectored thrusters and a Barrel Roll would be a better option, I can roposition and still fire my turret. And I can fire it when I do a red maneuver. Or bump. Or fly over a rock. Or anything esle that prevents me from having a target lock. Free rerolls in arc isn't enough to justify taking a turret that's worse in every other possible way.

If you are playing with Blaster Turrets not needing focus tokens, I would try Synced Turrets like this:

"(Attack):
Attack 1 ship (even a ship outside your firing arc).

If you have a target lock on the defender, and the defender is inside your primary firing arc, you may reroll a number of attack dice up to your primary weapon value."

Hmmmm...That would probably put you back in the position where no one would take a Blaster Turret over this.

1 minute ago, WWHSD said:

If you are playing with Blaster Turrets not needing focus tokens, I would try Synced Turrets like this:

"(Attack):
Attack 1 ship (even a ship outside your firing arc).

If you have a target lock on the defender, and the defender is inside your primary firing arc, you may reroll a number of attack dice up to your primary weapon value."

Hmmmm...That would probably put you back in the position where no one would take a Blaster Turret over this.

Yah, with blaster turret not needing any focus, it's hard to make synced turret playable without being either definitely better than blaster turret or definitely worse than blaster turret when both are the same cost. Either you need a token to fire and it's just worse, or you don't need a token, and it's just better.

5 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Yah, with blaster turret not needing any focus, it's hard to make synced turret playable without being either definitely better than blaster turret or definitely worse than blaster turret when both are the same cost. Either you need a token to fire and it's just worse, or you don't need a token, and it's just better.

I do think my suggestion for Synced Turret might be a viable alternative to TLT though.