So here's an odd question:

If a squadron begins its activation by attacking a ship with QLTs and the target ship hits back with Flechette Torpedoes on a critical effect, can the ship spend the Flechettes to prematurely end the activation?

Flechette torpedoes "toggle the activation slider to its activated side." Per the squadron activation section in the RRG, the toggle is flipped "after its activation" to show that it had already activated.

If Flechette Torpedoes go off as a counter, does this prematurely cause the activation to end as it only occurs "after its activation"?

It doesn't make a difference.

The Squad has already activated.

Toggling the token doesn't make a difference during the activation, because the only time you check to see if it was eligable was at the start.

Also, there's a big post on this one previously - I'll find it and post it here

EDIT:

Here it is... Such an Argument. Also went into things like Yavaris and such, for further details.

I note for discussion that the toggle only occurs "after it activates." Does this mean that it occurs after the activating finishes or immediately after the squadron is declared to activate by the player?

Flechette Torpedoes would either do nothing, or could end a Yavaris double tap or shooting then moving out of range.

12 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

I note for discussion that the toggle only occurs "after it activates." Does this mean that it occurs after the activating finishes or immediately after the squadron is declared to activate by the player?

Flechette Torpedoes would either do nothing, or could end a Yavaris double tap or shooting then moving out of range.

Essentially, Nowhere does it state that toggling ends the activation. That's a rules inferral that has no basis in the rules itself - rather, its the other way around... Ending the activation triggers the toggling.

So when used with Quad Laser Turrets, Fletchette Torpedoes does nothing.

That's the crux of the discussion, and the reason behind my (and many others) supporting the "Does nothing" mentality.

Which has the added irrelevant benefit of being Thematic... You're firing with Quad Laser Turrets.... Not with Flechette Torpedoes, during the counter-attack

It doesn't say that it ends an activation, but if the slide toggling indicates the end of the activation then it would actually be a legitimate question.

I actually would like them to do this, as it makes one dedicated anti squadron ship slightly better vs squadron attacks without breaking a bunch of other things. And Raiders, ironically, are most vulnerable to large bomber wings.

Then I suggest you ignore the hell out of every argument I have made thusfar, and submit the question and hope for errata, then.

As far as I can tell (and argued the last time this question was asked) - the interpretation is not supported by any rules precedence at this point in time.

it is somewhat interesting.

When you chose to activate, you move & shoot, or Shoot & move, or move, or shoot or do nothing at all, then move the slider to show it's had its go that turn.

If however you shoot, and then get toggled by FT's, does it then prevent you moving? it's the only scenario where it could actually do anything, if you moved then fired, you're done anyway, no effect. I am in the it doesn't do anything camp myself, but I can see what Cactusman is asking.

8 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

it is somewhat interesting.

When you chose to activate, you move & shoot, or Shoot & move, or move, or shoot or do nothing at all, then move the slider to show it's had its go that turn.

If however you shoot, and then get toggled by FT's, does it then prevent you moving? it's the only scenario where it could actually do anything, if you moved then fired, you're done anyway, no effect. I am in the it doesn't do anything camp myself, but I can see what Cactusman is asking.

It would also potentially interrupt the second Yavaris attack.

This seems to me like a natural progression of the idea of attacking and killing an enemy squadron with counter before it has a chance to move.

It feels nice and thematic, and would have been clever rules design.

If it had been written that way.

But it has not.

23 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

Then I suggest you ignore the hell out of every argument I have made thusfar, and submit the question and hope for errata, then.

As far as I can tell (and argued the last time this question was asked) - the interpretation is not supported by any rules precedence at this point in time.

I took your advice and submitted a pair of related questions to FFG. The first asks plainly if FTs end an activation prematurely.

The second question asks if counterattack causes the squadron to be removed from the board before the remainder of its action occurs (such as making a second attack or moving a strategic squadron).

Oh shoot, I should ask about my other question regarding attack step as well...

1 hour ago, thecactusman17 said:

The second question asks if counterattack causes the squadron to be removed from the board before the remainder of its action occurs (such as making a second attack or moving a strategic squadron).

Wait, I missed this one. Why wouldn't it?

If you're destroyed, you're done, end. If Demo flies off the board or rams and dies before its second shot, it doesn't finish its turn first... It's just dead.

Same thing.

So for Demolisher, the second attack after moving is in a separate phase of the turn activation. Also, technically, you could make the argument that for example you still have to move squadrons you land on. Basically, when your ship is destroyed as a result of moving you actually finish the movement phase, which results in you being destroyed.

At what point during a squadron activation does the squadron become destroyed after retaliation from a counterattack? Does a Yavaris B-Wing make both attacks after counter, or is it killed after the first?

-edit- and it's also a simple way to subtly suggest making that flechette ability work.

On 16.3.2017 at 2:12 AM, thecactusman17 said:

So here's an odd question:

If a squadron begins its activation by attacking a ship with QLTs and the target ship hits back with Flechette Torpedoes on a critical effect, can the ship spend the Flechettes to prematurely end the activation?

Flechette torpedoes "toggle the activation slider to its activated side." Per the squadron activation section in the RRG, the toggle is flipped "after its activation" to show that it had already activated.

If Flechette Torpedoes go off as a counter, does this prematurely cause the activation to end as it only occurs "after its activation"?

This one again?

Answer is no. Doesn't prematurely end anything.

8 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

So for Demolisher, the second attack after moving is in a separate phase of the turn activation. Also, technically, you could make the argument that for example you still have to move squadrons you land on. Basically, when your ship is destroyed as a result of moving you actually finish the movement phase, which results in you being destroyed.

At what point during a squadron activation does the squadron become destroyed after retaliation from a counterattack? Does a Yavaris B-Wing make both attacks after counter, or is it killed after the first?

-edit- and it's also a simple way to subtly suggest making that flechette ability work.

1. The damage is taken after you finish your move. That is said in the RRG p. 8 overlapping so you don't argue, you just do what the overlapping rule says you have to do. The most you can do is to say "wait we have two then" but it is not timing wording. You FINISH the ship's maneuver and then place the squadrons and deal one facedown damage card. When the ship has as many damage card as its hull value what happens after you deal the damage card the ship is destroyed and removed.

2. As the RRG says p. 5 destroyed ships and squadron. When the hull points of a squadron are reduced to 0 it is destroyed. When a squadron is destroyed remove it so there will not be a second attack. That's the reason because counter is worded as it is allowing a destroyed squadron with cointer to attack. When people throw the two attacks (the attacks and the counter) at the same time they do it wrong. Counter is AFTER with the specific clause that allow you use it even of you are destroyed.

All the above have nothing to do with flechette. The reasons that say flechettes don't end the squadron's activation have been stated before. If they don't work for you it is fine. I hope you get the answer from ffg and share it with us in the mail answered thread.

8 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

So for Demolisher, the second attack after moving is in a separate phase of the turn activation. Also, technically, you could make the argument that for example you still have to move squadrons you land on. Basically, when your ship is destroyed as a result of moving you actually finish the movement phase, which results in you being destroyed.

At what point during a squadron activation does the squadron become destroyed after retaliation from a counterattack? Does a Yavaris B-Wing make both attacks after counter, or is it killed after the first?

-edit- and it's also a simple way to subtly suggest making that flechette ability work.

Rieekan is the only thing keeping things on the board when they hit 0 hull. If a squad dies during a counter attack, it is removed immediately.

What if the flechettes toggle it early, then it auto-toggles BACK after the activation ends on its own accord, thus allowing it to activate again????

They can't. Per the wording, the slider is toggled to its "activated" side. It can't be toggled to the unactivated side.

Just now, Rettere said:

What if the flechettes toggle it early, then it auto-toggles BACK after the activation ends on its own accord, thus allowing it to activate again????

• After a squadron activates, toggle its activation slider to track that it has activated.

Nice try. But you toggle it not because it says blankly to toggle it... You toggle it to track that it has "Activated" - ergo, you must toggle it so it indicates that it has activated, which may involve multiple toggles to get 'right', but that's not out of the question, either... If you toggle after the activation, and you're not tracking that it activated (rather, you're tracking that its un activated), you're not following the letter or spirit of the rule

Darn no extra PEW pews!

Something came to me last night. It is probably stupid but I want to put here just to be sure.

1. A squadron command ends after you activated the last squadron, right? If yes keep reading.

2. A squadron ends its activation after performing a move or an attack depending on the order you choose. I mean if you choose move first or it cannot move the squadrons ends its activation after it attacks right? If yes keep reading.

3. Adar Tallon triggers after you resolve a squadron command what would mean after the last squadron you activate perform its attack/move right? If yes keep reading.

4. A counter attack triggers after you are attacked (not countered) so it could be at the same time your enemy end his activation and even at the same time the enemy ship ends its squadron command, right? If yes keep reading

Then if the second player's raider is attacked by squadrons activated from Tallon's ship the last squadron could be countered after the first player triggers his after effects (Tallon) so flechette would matter. I know it is the most corner case you could find as the first player could just trigger Tallon on any squadron but the last one (or just move if possible) to prevent the flechette but I would like to know if this is possible. I will probably never find this situation but it came to my mind last night as I said and left me wondering about.

My Argument:

No.

The baseline assumption is that the timing for the "Squadron Activation" is just the Move and Attack, and if this were the case, there woul dbe some credence, but it doesn't allow for anything else to happen in the meantime (and I'm willing to bet money that if you defined it rigidly as such, without allowing effects such as Counters to apply during the activation - you'd have people arguing anything that comes up that isn't a move+shoot "ends" the activation, because its not "legal" for the activation."

Additional, Precedences have basically stated that timing has to be explicitly identical, rather than incidentally next to each other.

In essence:

The Squadron Command doesn't end until everything involved with that squadron command is over. That also would incidentally include any effects generated by said activation during the Squadron Command - including a counter attack.

So the Counter Attack (and its associated Flechette rule) has to be done, and concluded completely, before you declare the Squadron Activation Over.

At which point, Adar Talon flips things back. because he has to wait until after the last squadron activation.

We had a similar set of timing arguments over "End of Round" and "End of Status Phase" before things were clarified in the FAQ. (This section provided for background and precedence)

Essentially, there were some people arguing that the End of the Status Phase, and the End of the Round, were the same timing position - as they are the "last point" in the timing.

However, this is not the case.

The Status phase has to end (and be completely concluded) before you can delcare the end of the Round to be done. So although they are very similar points, and happen near-simultaniously to each other, there is no simultaneously in Armada, and thusly, things are put into their order - and as the round contains the four phases, each of the four phases has to be done before the round is done.

This is a similar timing window - although they seem to both be "at the end", the timing is different. "After being hit" vs "after activation has completely ended."

7 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

My Argument:

No.

The baseline assumption is that the timing for the "Squadron Activation" is just the Move and Attack, and if this were the case, there woul dbe some credence, but it doesn't allow for anything else to happen in the meantime (and I'm willing to bet money that if you defined it rigidly as such, without allowing effects such as Counters to apply during the activation - you'd have people arguing anything that comes up that isn't a move+shoot "ends" the activation, because its not "legal" for the activation."

Additional, Precedences have basically stated that timing has to be explicitly identical , rather than incidentally next to each other.

In essence:

The Squadron Command doesn't end until everything involved with that squadron command is over. That also would incidentally include any effects generated by said activation during the Squadron Command - including a counter attack.

So the Counter Attack (and its associated Flechette rule) has to be done, and concluded completely, before you declare the Squadron Activation Over.

At which point, Adar Talon flips things back. because he has to wait until after the last squadron activation.

We had a similar set of timing arguments over "End of Round" and "End of Status Phase" before things were clarified in the FAQ. (This section provided for background and precedence)

Essentially, there were some people arguing that the End of the Status Phase, and the End of the Round, were the same timing position - as they are the "last point" in the timing.

However, this is not the case.

The Status phase has to end (and be completely concluded) before you can delcare the end of the Round to be done. So although they are very similar points, and happen near-simultaniously to each other, there is no simultaneously in Armada, and thusly, things are put into their order - and as the round contains the four phases, each of the four phases has to be done before the round is done.

This is a similar timing window - although they seem to both be "at the end", the timing is different. "After being hit" vs "after activation has completely ended."

Bold is pretty clear for me. I had something similar on mind but couldn't find the way to this through the "it seems consistent with the RAW" cloud.

Thanks Dras.

Another (simpler) way to look at it: "ending a command" is not an "effect", so the "choose order of effects with the same timing" clause does not apply. The command resolution ends when all the actual effects caused by the command (directly such as a squadron activation, or indirectly such as a counter attack) have been resolved.

23 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Something came to me last night. It is probably stupid but I want to put here just to be sure.

1. A squadron command ends after you activated the last squadron, right? If yes keep reading.

2. A squadron ends its activation after performing a move or an attack depending on the order you choose. I mean if you choose move first or it cannot move the squadrons ends its activation after it attacks right? If yes keep reading.

3. Adar Tallon triggers after you resolve a squadron command what would mean after the last squadron you activate perform its attack/move right? If yes keep reading.

4. A counter attack triggers after you are attacked (not countered) so it could be at the same time your enemy end his activation and even at the same time the enemy ship ends its squadron command, right? If yes keep reading

Then if the second player's raider is attacked by squadrons activated from Tallon's ship the last squadron could be countered after the first player triggers his after effects (Tallon) so flechette would matter. I know it is the most corner case you could find as the first player could just trigger Tallon on any squadron but the last one (or just move if possible) to prevent the flechette but I would like to know if this is possible. I will probably never find this situation but it came to my mind last night as I said and left me wondering about.

What if I attack the Raider with Luke and kill it and then move?

Order would be:

1. Luke attacks. Deals fatal damage.
2. Raider counters with hit/crit. Spend to trigger FT???
3. Luke moves.
4. End Squad activation.
5. Trigger Adar to reset Luke.

Luke doesn't get activated since you are far past that step. More importantly, you need to finish the counter attack before moving on to the next step.

After: An “after” effect occurs immediately after the specified event and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

Counter X: After a squadron performs a non-counter attack against you, you may attack that squadron with an anti-squadron armament of blue dice equal to X, even if you are destroyed.

Squad activation:

• When a squadron is activated by a command, it can move and attack in any order.

• After a squadron activates, toggle its activation slider to track that it has activated.

Adar Tallon: "After you resolve a command, exhaust this card to toggle the activation slider of 1 squadron activated with that command."