@Drasnighta With full respect for your competence and contributions as a rules guy, I don't see anything in the Armada rules as written that requires a ship to be chosen before an upgrade card is selected. You refer to what seems to be a very good mental flowchard of how one might implement rules of fleet building, but as written that is not described as a process:

Fleet Building
Each player builds a fleet by choosing ships, squadrons, and upgrade cards whose total fleet point cost does not exceed the total agreed upon by the players. The fleet point cost of each ship, squadron, and upgrade is printed in the lower-right corner of the card.
As part of building a fleet, each player must choose three objective cards, one from each category.
• The standard fleet point total is 300 points. If playing with just the core set, the recommended fleet point total is 180.
• Players may build fleets of any fleet point total as long as they both agree on the total.
• A fleet must be either Rebel-aligned or Imperial-aligned. It cannot contain any ships, squadrons, or upgrades that are aligned with the opposing faction.
• A fleet must have one flagship and cannot have more than one flagship.
• A fleet cannot spend more than one third of its fleet points, rounded up, on squadrons.

Going by the Golden Rule rule that "Effects on components such as cards sometimes contradict rules found in the Learn to Play or Rules Reference booklets. In these situations, the component’s effect takes precedence. If a card effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute." an upgrade card be worded to permit an unaligned faction ship by overriding the ship building rule above. (The cannot clause only refers to cards, not RRG rules).

My biggest concerns would be game balance implications, and preventing confusion on the game map, a rebel controlled ship would need to have very obvious markers.

Fleet Building is one Reference in the Rules, as you have Referenced.

Here is another:

Upgrade Cards

When building a fleet, upgrade cards can be equipped to ships by adding their fleet point costs to the total fleet point cost. For each upgrade icon in a ship’s upgrade bar, it may equip one upgrade card with the matching upgrade icon.

• Equipped upgrade cards are placed next to the ship card to which they are equipped.

• A Rebel ship cannot equip an Imperial upgrade card, and an Imperial ship cannot equip a Rebel upgrade card. A card’s faction affiliation, if any, is indicated by the faction’s symbol to the left of the fleet point cost.

Can you have an upgrade without a Ship ? (In Non-Campaign / Standard / Tournament Play) ?

Like I said - you can very easily write, in colloquial, standard english terms, etc - exactly what would be required to have an Upgrade do exactly what we want it to do...

But to actually write it in rules is far, FAR more difficult. Because there is an inherent procedure, and ignoring said inherent procedure runs the risk of doing other things, and in unintentionally allowing people to do some crazy things, if those rules are not airtight enough.

Upgrades are chosen for ships

I do not dismiss the possibility of it happening.

I just expect the mechanic to be tied to something other than the ship in question. Without, of course, errata to the rules.

You can select an upgrade before a ship, before your fleet is complete.

In the same way you could select a commander before a ship

Just now, Drasnighta said:

Can you have an upgrade without a Ship ? (In Non-Campaign / Standard / Tournament Play) ?

No but do the rules say you take the ship before you attach upgrades? Or is it simultaneous? Or does the list only become valid once you submit it to the TO or put it on the table?

My comment about the fleet building order of operations was kind of a jest, but had some merit to it. I understand your thought process behind fleet construction, but I have yet to see any rule that says at what point I can or cannot add something to the list, or at what time a ship is a part of a list, or when an upgrade is a part of a list, BESIDES when the fleets hit the table.

I added the section of quote for Upgrade Cards.

And in regards to commanders:

You may do it.

But that doesn't make it the rules .

I've thought long and hard on this process - this is not an off-the-cuff statement of mine. Furthermore, its something I feel will probably happen, and in some way, should happen. But the last thing I want is for this to be some sort of half-assed shot-through process that ruins the whole immersion of the game itself. So it needs to be either done right or not at all.

But that's my opinion on the matter .

Clearly, having actual background in games design is what my problem is here.

I don't disagree with anything you have said, I do think it's possible to choose an upgrade card for your fleet before assigning it to a ship.

1. Collect the ships and upgrade cards you intend to use.
2. assign cards to ships
3. verify card rules and game rules have been followed

3 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

I added the section of quote for Upgrade Cards.

And in regards to commanders:

You may do it.

But that doesn't make it the rules .

Man you always edit and add stuff after I quote you

But my question still stands. At what point do the rules apply to fleet building? During the entire process? Is the fleet in limbo up until I print the list? I don't know the answer to this because there has never been an issue before to make me question the fleet building rules.

Just now, Undeadguy said:

Man you always edit and add stuff after I quote you

But my question still stands. At what point do the rules apply to fleet building? During the entire process? Is the fleet in limbo up until I print the list? I don't know the answer to this because there has never been an issue before to make me question the fleet building rules.

Which is why I am advocating this.

Its "tighter" in a design concept to consider verification at the start, and through the process...

Its always better to know your list is illegal right away , then getting all the way to the end and finding out you've messed up.

The process that results in fewer illegal games design processes should be the key.

... should be .

There's no definitive "proof" of it in this instance. In either direction. Ergo, I advocate good games design , rather than bad games design, and in doing so, attempt to show my faith in a Games Design Company to know what they are doing.

EXCEPT Hammerheads were never Imperial ships canonically so FFG would just be making stuff up to force concepts into the game if this theory were correct.

I spent some time looking for a dbz abridged gif for this, couldnt find it. But you know;

Neeeeeeerrrrrd's.

2 hours ago, Forresto said:

EXCEPT Hammerheads were never Imperial ships canonically so FFG would just be making stuff up to force concepts into the game if this theory were correct.

All ships are Imperial. Some were just stolen by criminals and used against them.

2 hours ago, Madaghmire said:

I spent some time looking for a dbz abridged gif for this, couldnt find it. But you know;

Neeeeeeerrrrrd's.

::nerds it up, yo... by like, 1000... That's what the card says, right?::

Assuming Dras is correct, happens a lot around here, the only way to use a non faction ship in your fleet would be an upgrade on a separate ship, or a new version of the ship card.

Just to ask the question, is there any reason a ship card can't be unique?

Such as a Rebel quasar fire, but they could only ever field that one. That would be great to include in the next campaign box. Possibly with objectives specific to acquiring those cards in game. Though, to be thematic, the Imps would need something to counterbalance as what Imperial officer wants a former rebel junk heap, when he can get a nice shiney death triangle?

To make any card unique, it just needs a dot next to the name at the top, right?

Wouldn't the inclusion of something like a title allowing you to use an off-faction ship in your fleet just show that that is how the mechanics of the game are intended?

The extremely rules-lawyer interpretation (which I totally get - that's usually my wheelhouse for games) would in that case just disprove itself , rather than "prove" that the card doesn't work.

If an upgrade was instead printed with "You may select this card before equipping it to a ship. You must include [ship] in your fleet as if it were [faction], and it counts as [faction] for all other upgrades. Equip this card to [ship]." - that kind of language would really enforce the detailed rules reading, because it would specifically acknowledge it instead of disregarding it.

Eh. *shrugs*

All i know is, if they allow us rebel users to use one unique Light Carrier, i WILL buy one! I don't care if it's a special card, upgrade, campaign expansion, space magic, unicorn fart or whatever-as long as it gets the job done!

53 minutes ago, idiewell said:

All i know is, if they allow us rebel users to use one unique Light Carrier, i WILL buy one! I don't care if it's a special card, upgrade, campaign expansion, space magic, unicorn fart or whatever-as long as it gets the job done!

Again, me too... But only for the Reinforced Blast Doors!

I can see in the future ships that are specificaly unalligned to a faction, released along with two upgrade cards, one which makes a ship imperial, one that makes it rebels.

I believe having a wave of specific unaligned ships would be the easiest way to introduce dual faction ships without freaking everyone out lol

OR

We could just have an commander that costs a lot, possibly 50 points, that allows ships from the opposite faction to be included in your fleet, as long as they are a small or medium base

If rebels are allowed to use the light carrier due to a title card, I will buy two expansions and paint them differently.

If they can't, I will buy one.

That is all. FFG take note please.

We could still get ship cards in the CC

On 3/15/2017 at 8:39 PM, Drasnighta said:

Reason:

Upgrades are attached to a Ship.

You cannot select a Ship that does not match your Affilation.

Ergo, you cannot Select the Ship, in order to put the title on it, in order to change its Affilation.

Chicken/Egg Scenario.

It can work if the enabler is something that is not attached to the Ship Itself - such as a Fleet Commander or an Officer Upgrade on a Different Ship, that says, "This allows you add 'x' to your Fleet, despite the affilation restriction."

But it can't work on a Title that attaches to the Ship itself, as you can't take the Ship first...

Its something that does work when you consider the rules in a "Common Sense" or Colloquial manner... But it doesn't work in actual rules writing.

Or, a list is treated as a whole, and only validated as a whole. The ltp rules don't explain multiple checks at when a fleet is and is not illegal, there are only a set of restrictions. If we apply these restrictions in the order they appear we find that the restrictions on out of faction ships (22) appear after the restrictions on titles (21). However, we already know that upgrades that modify cards can interrupt these restrictions, for example the Phoenix home title applies a modification to the legal upgrades of a Pelta cruiser, even though the restrictions appear in the proceeding section. If we were to assume that fleets were built using a sequence, the rulebook does not make this sequence explicit, therefore giving the player the freedom to build in any order they wish, so long as the final fleet meets all the rules.

In other words: there's no wrong method to fleetbuilding, only wrong fleets.

On 3/15/2017 at 9:36 PM, Drasnighta said:

You can't do it with a Title.

You need a Ship Card.

It's all about how you word the title card. It can be worded so it overrides the rule in the rule books.

On 3/15/2017 at 9:45 PM, thecactusman17 said:

Eh.

The is nothing inherently Imperial or Rebel about most ship cards or bases. Unlike X-Wing, where the cards and dials explicitly reference unique pilots, there is no such restriction on Armada ships. Nothing on a generic, unupgraded ship card or base restricts the usage of the ship in question.

In that sense, a title restricted to specific ship classes that says "this ship may be fielded in a (faction) fleet. It may not take upgrades unless they are (faction) upgrades or neutral."

Except for the color of the firing arcs. (Red for Rebels, Green for Imperials). There is a reason why in X-wing the Scuurg comes not only with a rebel and a scum dial but with a rebel tile as well as a rebel pilot card.

30 minutes ago, Rune Taq said:

It's all about how you work the title card. It can be worded so it overrides the rule in the rule books.

K.I.S.S.

On 3/16/2017 at 5:38 AM, HoundsTooth said:

Technically the Hammerheads were not stolen, they were gifted to the Phoenix Rebels by Bail Organa under the guise of being stolen (in order not to implicate Alderaan in the Rebellion). I'm not sure the Empire ever used Corvettes of any kind, especially now as Disney has ret-conned the Corvettes into 'Aldreaan Cruisers' on it's Star Wars database.

well they've confirmed the "alderaanian cruisers" are also CR-90's in some of the other Canon materials.

Per Tarkin and some of the other novels, the Empire makes use of CR-90 Corvettes in its navy. they show up mostly in the novels set in the earlier days of the empire, so i'd guess that the Republic Navy had been buying militarized CR-90's in the tail end of the Clone Wars (probably to replace the c20 refit Consular class ships used in the earlier days of the war) and the Empire continued to use them.