So I've tried looking for comprehensive rules for the use of shields but haven't had much luck. I know they are treated as a weapon (seems a bit odd to me but ok) and that they get the "Defensive" quality, also some get mentioned (the ones listed in the IH) as providing a certain amount of cover. My questions are...

1) Is the cover used only for ranged combat and the Defensive quality for melee?

2) In the cover section of the handbook it says that if the thing providing cover takes more dmg in one hit then the protection it provides then said protection drops by 1. ex. shield provides 8 AP of cover shot hits and does 11, from now on the shield only has an AP of 7?

3) There is a shields post in the house rules section that talks about the errata dealing with shields, I've downloaded and printed off the errata and haven't seen any mention of shields, am I missing it or is there another errata somewhere?

Any help here would be greatly appreciated, pointing me to an official stand, errata, book page number... I'm not looking for house rules, I know they are out there and I know that they serve their purpose, but I'm looking for the official rules.

Thanks

1) Is the cover used only for ranged combat and the Defensive quality for melee?

There is no cover against melee attacks. You either parry with the shield and take no damage or... you don't.

2) In the cover section of the handbook it says that if the thing providing cover takes more dmg in one hit then the protection it provides then said protection drops by 1. ex. shield provides 8 AP of cover shot hits and does 11, from now on the shield only has an AP of 7?

Exactly.

3) There is a shields post in the house rules section that talks about the errata dealing with shields, I've downloaded and printed off the errata and haven't seen any mention of shields, am I missing it or is there another errata somewhere?

He's referring to house rules. The link to them should be contained in his first post.

I'll add a question:

the primitive quality of a guard shield counts for it's armor value or only for damage?

i understand that a shield isn't a good weapon but since it's built for defense against bullets i hope it's stronger than a wooden table...

thanks!

cpt.catarro said:

The Primitive weapon quality is distinct in effect from the Primitive armour type; as a weapon, a shield with the Primitive quality suffers the effects only when attacking; as it isn't listed as a form of Primitive Armour (which is a category of armour, rather than a quality applied to armour), the AP it provides is not Primitive.

That's how I see it, anyway.

I actually think they are supposed to be primitive, I think that the ap value was doubled from what it should be then set to primitive. If you think about it, having 6 ap if it isn't primative is on par with power armor and that seems very wrong to me.

I will defer to N0-1_H3r3 far superior knowledge on this...

i see your point kahlual... with a light carapace armor and a naval shield a player has a ap value of 8+5=13,better than any power armor...

and the 9 obtainable with the "primitive" shield it's still a very good value... unfortunately the shield is an ablative armor,i'll have to take with me a set of shields...

In the IH guide (pgs 97, 99) it describes the Mirror Shield and Tower shields as having primitive AP for the purposes of cover only. The AP listing for shields is not primitive unless otherwise described and only for cover (so subject to the cover rules). As N0-1_H3R3 said, the primitive quality is for melee attacking purposes. In melee, shields are used for parrying or attacking only (-20 to attacks; DH pg 140) not Armour. Now even if you somehow monoed one of the shields in the IH on pg 97 or 99 the AP would still be considered Primitive because the Mono upgrade only removes the Primitive quality for the purposes of attack damage since it's still made from the same primitive material. And shields can't receive the Lathe Blade upgrade (IH pg 147)so we don't have to worry about the whole 25 AP thing .

cpt.catarro said:

If you were counting it as armour though, it'd still only be 8, as armour doesn't stack in DH/RT. It would be counted if it's classed as cover, but as you said, in that case it would quickly be rendered useless under heavy fire (one good Full Auto/Semi-Auto burst from an autogun/autopistol would destroy them, since each bullet's damage is taken seperately).

I will speak to the gm to see if we want to consider it armor or cover.

if it's considered as armor it's not so bad,but i think i will change my shield for another weapon.

cpt.catarro said:

Well, in the proper rules, the AV for the shield is how much it deflects as cover. It being full armour, that doesn't degrade, as well as stacking with other armour, would be massively overpowered. Someone with a shield and light carapace, as shown above, would be better than power armour.

but if both are considered armor they won't stack,so the best obtainable is ap 8 in the zones covered by the shield.

MILLANDSON said:

It shouldn't be counted as armor for stacking, as it doesn't work quite the same by the rules; pg. 199 of Dark Heresy. In brief; "If the shot would hit a body location that is concealed by cover, work out the Damage against the Armor Points of the cover instead, with any excess being applied to the target as normal."

So, and my interpretation may be wrong, but here we go. You get shot in the right leg which is concealed behind a rockcrete planter (AP16; and let's say non-primitive) by a heavy bolter round (2d10 Tearing; Pen. 5) for 18 points of damage. The AP of the planter is reduced by the pen of the bolt round to 11, meaning 7 of the 18 points of damage get through; and reducing the planter's cover AP by 1. Now, here is where the tricky interpretation comes in for what is meant by "any excess being applied to the target as normal."

Normally when hit by a heavy bolter in the leg you would be subject to X damage at penetration 5. SO I read this as meaning that the 7 point hit after cover would still be Pen 5. To further the example; you are wearing good-quality storm trooper carapace (AP 6) and this is the first attack to hit you in the round (+1 AP vs this attack) for a total AP of 7 with a TB of 3. The penetration of the heavy bolter drops your AP to 2, thus reducing the damage now to 5; then your TB of 3 knocks it down further to a grand total of 2 points of damage in the leg. The planter is also now only AP 15 versus the next shot it applies against... And as this was a heavy bolter hit, there is a relatively good chance that the next hit is imminent with the weapons ROF of -/-/10, potentially chewing poor little you to pieces.

Whether this is how it's intended to work, this is how I've interpreted the cover rules for my game and it has been working great so far. And if you don't think that a riot officer using a ballistic shield in full riot armor isn't getting the benefit of BOTH the shields protection and the armor then there's something of the underlying concept being missed, I think.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Brother Praetus said:

This sounds right to me. The rules do explicitly say that cover gets hit before the individual does and gets their armor. I think the pen would get kept as well. After all, a plasma bolt will still mess up armor whether it passed through a door or not. I haven't gotten a chance to use cover all that much in my games as of yet but I do it like this as well.

Brother has the cover and armour thing right.

"Preach on, my brother!"