Okay, I'll be the guy to start this, then.

True or False: General Leia can be used in conjunction with a dial+token to get the effects of a token twice.

Shakily replies: "False?"

No way of knowing and no way of precedences to go by...

1) She could, as they would all be a single resolution of the command, as long as they are all the same as per her requirement.

2) If we do allow it, then we're leaping in faith on what to do with multiple instances of the same command token - Do their effects effectively stack, or does spending a Dial + Token + Token count as spending a Dial + Token... Since the rules only ever reference Dial + Token.

3) There's no mention of actually changing or adding numerical values. I believe it says you count as if you spent the token as well, by spending the dial... Which could make spending another token irrelevant.

'tis a complete Grey Area, and the arguments will be even both ways until there's some further Guidance or Tidied up Wording on the card.

But its already on my "List" of Wave 6 Questions to ask.

7 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

it says you count as if you spent the token as well, by spending the dial... Which could make spending another token irrelevant.

For this reason, I'm leaning slightly toward False as well. But I really could see it going either way.

It wouldn't be a limitation on being allowed to spend the token so much as just not getting any benefit out of having done so. Kind of like QLT/Kallus/FleshTorps.

Oh, I have no doubt you could spend the "Second Token" if you wanted to... Its just wether it provides an additional benefit, or wether the doubled benefit doesn't stack... Kinda like the Fire Control + Default Crit + XX-9... Or Madine + Nav Team. You can totally do it, but they overlap and thus only provide the singular benefit.

25 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Oh, I have no doubt you could spend the "Second Token" if you wanted to... Its just wether it provides an additional benefit, or wether the doubled benefit doesn't stack... Kinda like the Fire Control + Default Crit + XX-9... Or Madine + Nav Team. You can totally do it, but they overlap and thus only provide the singular benefit.

But how they overlap?

The rules say that both count as a sigle resolution of the command not as a single effect. I think we discused this somewhere while we talked about DTT. Maybe the confusing "combine" word. IMHO you resolve the dial and the token as two effects but one command. There is nothing like if you spend dial and token you can activate your squadron value +1. You activate as many squadron as your squaron value and you activate 1 squadron. If we look at BCC (at least as it is right now) we have two effects, two rerolls and we do them following the timing rules. Something similar could happen with cf token. We have three effects that counts as 1 command (if the rule applies to dial+token+token of course). All three have the same timing so we resolve as we wish. We add a die, then we reroll a die and then we reroll again.

If a token resolution would add something to the dial resolution when resolving both I would agree at 100% but I am not sure if it works that way. I think it is not a more powerful dial rather than two effects that count as a single command for purpose of not resolving the same command more than once per round.

Anyway I wouldn't bet for me.

Yeah, if anything, the as if is indeed the pretty big clue that there's probably no stacking.

The card also triggers on a when timing, then it probably overrides the normal command resolution much like Mothma overrides the evade token effect resolution. There's effectively no window to spend any real token if you decide to trigger Leia's effect by spending that dial, is there?

4 minutes ago, Gowtah said:

Yeah, if anything, the as if is indeed the pretty big clue that there's probably no stacking.

The card also triggers on a when timing, then it probably overrides the normal command resolution much like Mothma overrides the evade token effect resolution. There's effectively no window to spend any real token if you decide to trigger Leia's effect by spending that dial, is there?

Not sure if a when overrides the normal command resolution but I think is interesting what you say. To avoid returning to the article page I will try to copy the text here:

"When a friendly ship resolves a command by spending a dial, if it has not resolved another command this round it may resolve that command as if it spent a matching command token. If it does, that ship cannot resolve additional commands this round."

It is clear that if the ship resolves a command by spending a token, Leia doesn't trigger. Nothing about resolving a command by spending a dial and a token so you could as long as a dial is spent but then I think why Leia would boost your command with double token when you spend a dial and she doesn't when you spend a token. The only situation it could have sense is resolving double token and spending the dial to get a token but I think it is weird to write Leia to avoid this and not to avoid double tokens but who knows.

17 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

But how they overlap?

The rules say that both count as a sigle resolution of the command not as a single effect. I think we discused this somewhere while we talked about DTT. Maybe the confusing "combine" word. IMHO you resolve the dial and the token as two effects but one command. There is nothing like if you spend dial and token you can activate your squadron value +1. You activate as many squadron as your squaron value and you activate 1 squadron. If we look at BCC (at least as it is right now) we have two effects, two rerolls and we do them following the timing rules. Something similar could happen with cf token. We have three effects that counts as 1 command (if the rule applies to dial+token+token of course). All three have the same timing so we resolve as we wish. We add a die, then we reroll a die and then we reroll again.

If a token resolution would add something to the dial resolution when resolving both I would agree at 100% but I am not sure if it works that way. I think it is not a more powerful dial rather than two effects that count as a single command for purpose of not resolving the same command more than once per round.

Anyway I wouldn't bet for me.

I threw all of the points up, basically.

I mean, she's expensive .

She is exactly the price of Grand Moff Tarkin, and has - overall - a similar level of Ability.

Grand Moff Tarkin is basically granting that "Free" Token effect by actually granting a Free Token... But its "Downside" is that it must be the same Token across the Fleet.

Leia is freeing you from that Restriction, it is always a Token that is matching your Command Dial (effectively)... The "Downside" is you cannot resolve a different command token at the same time for multiple order shenanigans....

IF you assume their downsides are similar in power and detriment, then I would go with the assumption that Leia does not allow you to stack a token on top of your Free Dial+Token resolution - on the grounds that Tarkin won't (effectively) let you do that either, because a ship cannot hold two copies of the same command token at this point in time... (I totally believe that's going to be a ship upgrade in the future - and possibly Thrawn's ability)...

On the face of it, she seems, at least aimed to be Balanced with Tarkin's point level... Of course, that does not factor in Cross-Faction differences and what you can do with those tokens vs How many Ships you're intending to use, etc, etc, etc, etc.... But as a baseline, its a fairly solid comparison.

" • A ship cannot resolve the same command more than
once per round.
• A ship can spend both a command dial and a command
token to combine their effects. Doing so counts as a
single resolution of the command. For example, a ship
can increase its speed twice by spending a M command
dial and a M command token."

For me, the sticking point is " a command token." Leia already treats your spent command as being a dial + token, and the use of the singular a would mean that you can't add another command token.

11 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

I threw all of the points up, basically.

I mean, she's expensive .

She is exactly the price of Grand Moff Tarkin, and has - overall - a similar level of Ability.

Grand Moff Tarkin is basically granting that "Free" Token effect by actually granting a Free Token... But its "Downside" is that it must be the same Token across the Fleet.

Leia is freeing you from that Restriction, it is always a Token that is matching your Command Dial (effectively)... The "Downside" is you cannot resolve a different command token at the same time for multiple order shenanigans....

IF you assume their downsides are similar in power and detriment, then I would go with the assumption that Leia does not allow you to stack a token on top of your Free Dial+Token resolution - on the grounds that Tarkin won't (effectively) let you do that either, because a ship cannot hold two copies of the same command token at this point in time... (I totally believe that's going to be a ship upgrade in the future - and possibly Thrawn's ability)...

On the face of it, she seems, at least aimed to be Balanced with Tarkin's point level... Of course, that does not factor in Cross-Faction differences and what you can do with those tokens vs How many Ships you're intending to use, etc, etc, etc, etc.... But as a baseline, its a fairly solid comparison.

I agree with all this. But I don't see the point that avoid spending the token. In fact I think Leia is more powerful than Tarkin IF she let you stack the token SO the cost YOU POINTED AT is the only strong thing I see to think she cannot do that

1 minute ago, Valca said:

For me, the sticking point is " a command token." Leia already treats your spent command as being a dial + token, and the use of the singular a would mean that you can't add another command token.

That is a valid interpretation indeed. And one I'm more likely to agree with on the face of things.

But you also need to consider the background environment in which the rules are Written, on occasion...

The fact that, until this very moment , 6 Waves in... There has been no precedent for you to be able to spend 2 Identical command tokens at a time, as you could not hold two tokens at the same time.

Now, I'm all for future-proofing and all in Core rules - its something you should consider... But its also a long-ass time to be future proofing over, so I won't dismiss the fact that it may be an Oversight.

However, if it is an oversight - its an oversight that may require Errata to correct, being that its a Core Rule.

4 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

I agree with all this. But I don't see the point that avoid spending the token. In fact I think Lea is more powerful than Tarkin is she let you stack the token. The cost is the only strong thing I see to think she cannot do that

Basically, in a Vacuum:

Grand Moff Tarkin and Leia Organa are identical , if all ships on both Sides are all performing the Identical Command and all desire to have a Dial+Token effect on a single turn.

And thus.. Identically Costed.

What we must think about a command dial then?

2 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

That is a valid interpretation indeed. And one I'm more likely to agree with on the face of things.

But you also need to consider the background environment in which the rules are Written, on occasion...

The fact that, until this very moment , 6 Waves in... There has been no precedent for you to be able to spend 2 Identical command tokens at a time, as you could not hold two tokens at the same time.

Now, I'm all for future-proofing and all in Core rules - its something you should consider... But its also a long-ass time to be future proofing over, so I won't dismiss the fact that it may be an Oversight.

However, if it is an oversight - its an oversight that may require Errata to correct, being that its a Core Rule.

And given their track record with rules writing in general, I seriously doubt they future-proofed very far.

2 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Basically, in a Vacuum:

Grand Moff Tarkin and Leia Organa are identical , if all ships on both Sides are all performing the Identical Command and all desire to have a Dial+Token effect on a single turn.

Let me edit my post.

If there was a ruling anywhere that says you can't resolve the same token twice...

2 minutes ago, Sybreed said:

If there was a ruling anywhere that says you can't resolve the same token twice...

There isn't one. because until now, its simply not possible .

Why write a Rule for a Situation that, basically, could never happen?

Just now, Drasnighta said:

There isn't one. because until now, its simply not possible .

Why write a Rule for a Situation that, basically, could never happen?

I'm guessing we'll have our answers in the article preview.

1 minute ago, Sybreed said:

I'm guessing we'll have our answers in the article preview.

Well, we'll try ... But those are always Immediately dismissed, as they routinely have Errors.

Like telling us that Foresight could spend both Evade Tokens to remove four enemy Dice at long range.

...

I mean, Case in point - This morning, the Picture for the Quasar Carrier spread has Updated........

- Sloan's wording is now "Without Rogue" both there, and the zoom in.
- Quad 227 Turrets is now Quad Battery Turrets.
- Quasar lost its Contain Token.
- Quasar is now Engineering 2, not 3.......

Technically, can't you spend a command dial+token, and Ashoeka-in another token in the stack? I don't have time to peruse the timings involved right now, but I'm of the opinion that if Leia lets you stack, then Ashoka should too.

No, you can't.

There is no "Stack", basically. Nothing happens Simultaniously in Armada, its all given defined timing (you just choose it)...

So You would elect to spend Dial+Token... Even if you "interrupted" your bit during the "during the activation" to thusly change a Token with Ahsoka - you've already gone passed the "Spend Dial+Token" step, so you can't then re-add in the Second Token... Because the interrupt happens at the end of a substep, rather than "Simultaniously" as a True Interrupt would be...

You'd be left with the Token that got Changed, and couldn't spend it a second time...

Its Kinda the same reason why you can't use Tractor Beams twice with Interdictor Title, for example...

Well then you can't resolve simultaneously the "spend dial+token" to resolve a normal command and gain its effect and the "spend a dial" to resolve Leia and gain hers?

I don't get what you're saying there.

As I said earlier:

You can Spend a Dial.

You can Spend a Dial + Token.

With Leia, that might be a (Dial+Token)+Token.

But as the rules as given only tell us what to do when you Spend a Dial and a Token... Effectively Spending a Dial+Token+Token might only give the same benefits as a Dial+Token... In the fact that benefits for a Dial+Token+Token are not defined anywhere as even remotely possible.

So if that's the case, there's no point to it - They both trigger, but they don't stack - like the before mentioned Fire Control+XX9+Default Crit (The First Damage card plus the First Two Damage cards Still = The First Two Damage cards, because flipping the first card face up TWICE doesn't do anything more than flipping it face up once...)

If you spend an evade token with Mothma, you don't get the normal effect ontop of hers.

If you spend a dial then choose to trigger Leia, you don't get the normal mechanic of command resolution just in the same fashion: the command isn't resolved by the rule-defined way, but by the Leia rule-trumping way. Hence, it doesn't matter what the real token might or might not do, because it's not taken into account by Leia's text.

If you trigger Leia, you get her effect, not her effect + an extra bit of the normal command resolution. You don't spend the dial+token, then get to use one part for Leia's effect then the other for the normal command resolution effect.

Am I making more sense?

Also the text doesn't say "as if you spent an extra token."