A note. My locals and myself have all had nearly 15 to 20 games of practice each vs mass squadrons. Over 6 or so people at 120 games total I can say that there is strong evidence that the squadrons simply blip the small ships one at a time as they close before they get to fire. Consequently your raiders will not behave the way you think they will. They will be largely one shot off the board due to ships moving first and shooting next turn.

10 hours ago, TheEasternKing said:

I thought 500pts gives a 33pt increase to squadron cap? that is 1 (unique)-3 (generic)more squadrons, hardly game breaking amounts.

What 500 points does allow is a no squadron build, than can table someone who spent a full 164pts on squadrons, very quickly.

It's not about adding 2-4 new squads. It's about upgrading 4-6 generic squads to special unique squads.

Basically, at 167 points there's no reason to not just buy the unique version of everything with insane special rules and additional firepower.

I am happy with a move to 500 points if the squadron cap does not increase.

15 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

It's not about adding 2-4 new squads. It's about upgrading 4-6 generic squads to special unique squads.

Basically, at 167 points there's no reason to not just buy the unique version of everything with insane special rules and additional firepower.

All Imperial aces/uniques comes in at 369pts, all Rebel aces/uniques comes in at 392pts, so I'm not sure I agree with your assertion.

You can get 1-2 more for an extra 33pts, usually one more. But it it less than half of available choices, and currently I can get 9 Imperial Aces for 133pts, for a 167 I can add 1 or 2 more, but they are uniques with no def tokens.

1 minute ago, TheEasternKing said:

All Imperial aces/uniques comes in at 369pts, all Rebel aces/uniques comes in at 392pts, so I'm not sure I agree with your assertion.

You can get 1-2 more for an extra 33pts, usually one more. But it it less than half of available choices.

I think you need to reread what he said. Cuz your assertion and his don't have a logical link.

1 minute ago, Blail Blerg said:

I think you need to reread what he said. Cuz your assertion and his don't have a logical link.

You can take 9 uniques right now for 134pts, 11 for 167

I fail to see how the addition of two more unique squadrons with no def tokens, or 1 with def tokens, is suddenly having the table swarming with additional squadrons with special abilities.

15 hours ago, stayontarget said:

Been playing lots of 500 point games in the CC and I like the game a lot better at that point value.

Thoughts?

I like 500 points, but the extra time it takes is a thing... I wonder if increasing limit to 500 really adds any new archetypes to the game rather than just being more of the same... For tournaments I would say no... 3 rounds at 400 can be grueling enough, 500 would be ironman territory...

25 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

All Imperial aces/uniques comes in at 369pts, all Rebel aces/uniques comes in at 392pts, so I'm not sure I agree with your assertion.

You can get 1-2 more for an extra 33pts, usually one more. But it it less than half of available choices, and currently I can get 9 Imperial Aces for 133pts, for a 167 I can add 1 or 2 more, but they are uniques with no def tokens.

The difference is that yes, you can take 9 unique squads now, but I can take 9-10 carefully selected generics to accomplish a specific goal, and upgrade most or all of the generics to unique versions at 167 with greater combat efficiency. This is especially true for Rebels and Rieekan Aces lists where the ships often lose any downsides to their performance and then get to become zombies as well.

A well composed block of unique squadrons is far more dangerous than a randomly assorted collection of whatever fits.

I think it should be 600 points, since that makes a good round squadron number.

On-topic: if you have squadron's eating up a lot of your time, make sure you have played at least 5 normal games with each type of squadron you're bringing to the bigger game. Generally things only slow down when you're playing something you haven't played before, or don't have a plan with. I find that after about 5 games, I know exactly what i'm going to be doing with that particular tool in my fleet. Cuts down on decision making time when you actually know what the hell you're doing.

13 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

The difference is that yes, you can take 9 unique squads now, but I can take 9-10 carefully selected generics to accomplish a specific goal, and upgrade most or all of the generics to unique versions at 167 with greater combat efficiency. This is especially true for Rebels and Rieekan Aces lists where the ships often lose any downsides to their performance and then get to become zombies as well.

A well composed block of unique squadrons is far more dangerous than a randomly assorted collection of whatever fits.

All I am saying is that is a minimal increase, especially when considered against 100pts for more ships and upgrades. I'm just not seeing this as being a huge issue.
And I can take 9 Imperial uniques that will work amazingly well with Admiral Sloane, not just some random collection as you infer.

Sloane has radically shifted the viability of certain squadrons in a way that did not previously exist, so that's debatable. Also, we will have to wait and see regarding if she is as viable as people hope.

48 minutes ago, SkyCake said:

I like 500 points, but the extra time it takes is a thing... I wonder if increasing limit to 500 really adds any new archetypes to the game rather than just being more of the same... For tournaments I would say no... 3 rounds at 400 can be grueling enough, 500 would be ironman territory...

^This.

I've been a long-time proponent of an every-increasing pts cap, but after playing a good number of CC games (rather than just one-off 500-600 pr games) I've come to the conclusion that 500 pts solves absolutely nothing. I'm flying largely the same archetypes - and I'm strapped for points. Basically my 400 pt fleets want 500, but my 500 want 600...and so forth and so forth.

3 rounds at 400 pts is enough for one day. 4 rounds is just punishing - it makes the Swiss system really shine, but for all but the most dedicated players it's just too much.

So going to 500 would just make stuff take longer, and not really add much.

That said, I would not be contrary to 450, and maybe a time increase to 2h 30m. That's doable. But I won't cry if it never happens.

400 pts limits you when building fleets so it forces people to think about there lists and tweak them to get the best which is why we have such a healthily game. Adding more points to the game does not make it better in any way, as all it's doing is giving people more ships and upgrades to field and making fleet building more straight forward.

12 minutes ago, Plagueis said:

400 pts limits you when building fleets so it forces people to think about there lists and tweak them to get the best which is why we have such a healthily game. Adding more points to the game does not make it better in any way, as all it's doing is giving people more ships and upgrades to field and making fleet building more straight forward.

It changes what you can bring to be able to one round various ships (like motti-ISD). It also dilutes powerful ship-centered unique cards, like Demo, Admonition, or Yavaris, since you have to bring other, less efficient things.

59 minutes ago, Plagueis said:

400 pts limits you when building fleets so it forces people to think about there lists and tweak them to get the best which is why we have such a healthily game. Adding more points to the game does not make it better in any way, as all it's doing is giving people more ships and upgrades to field and making fleet building more straight forward.

Or the flip side, 400pts limits the game with the addition of so many new ships, that some are vastly underrepresented in fleet builds, as they simply are not optimum.

Also, people seem to be forgetting that 500 points looks way more epic, like actual fleets.

And I haven't found 1-2 more squadrons/ships adding that much more time.

If you have an issue with squads at 400, going to 500 solves nothing. They have the same general effect on the battle.

There are only 3 discernible effects increasing the point limit would have.

1)Uniques that affect only the ships/squad itself (Demo, Wedge) will have a diminished effect on the battle as they take up a smaller %.

2) Uniques that provide area buffs (Home One, Rhymer, admirals) become stronger as there is more to affect.

3) Games take longer

I find 2 and 3 more negative than the benefit of 1. You all have the freedom to view any of these as positive or negative, and in whatever magnitude you choose. That is all the debate really is (as others have noted).

why not go for 450?

In all the 500 pt games I've played I've never noticed an increase in time. Typically players have an extra ship or a few more squadrons, but because players tend to focus fire, ships get destroyed quicker during the first few exchanges of fire; so whilst there are more things to move early on, there are fewer in the late game.

I much prefer building fleets at this level and they def have a better feel of being an armada.

my main argument for a point increase would be to mitigate the points % that flotillas took since wave 3...

I think with all the new stuff around ships will b falling off the table in every turn. So either Armada tournaments will be much faster or the limit will be raised.

30 minutes ago, Sybreed said:

why not go for 450?

I could be convinced for this, if only because thats a nice squadron value of 150.

8 hours ago, TheEasternKing said:

Or the flip side, 400pts limits the game with the addition of so many new ships, that some are vastly underrepresented in fleet builds, as they simply are not optimum.

I never understand this argument. What non optimum ships at 400pts become optimum at 500pts?

They still are not optimum and still wont be included in builds.

13 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

I never understand this argument. What non optimum ships at 400pts become optimum at 500pts?

They still are not optimum and still wont be included in builds.

Support and aoe ships, specifically.

Just now, Ardaedhel said:

Support and aoe ships, specifically.

Pelta's, Interdictors and Home one are all viable at 400pts....