8 minutes ago, Reiver said:

What impresses me about these is that we now have a better snipe-jousting generic than the mangler Scyk - 4hp@agi3 is roughly analogous to 6hp@agi2, generics rarely have more than a single dice mod anyways, so the limitation doesn't matter... and the bomber does this for two points less . That's... huge.

I've been running Mangler Scyks ever since that +1 hull FAQ and they're surprisingly effective. That 5-K is crucial to keeping them at that happy range 3. The TIE Bomber has that too... but also needs to the focus to fuel this attack. But as you said... 2 points cheaper and a similar level of survivability. The bomber dial isn't nearly as bad as people assume it is, but the Scyk dial is probably better (white 1 turns are another key part of staying at range 3).

I'm really looking forward to running this upgrade en masse but I suspect it'll be better on ships that are doing something else with their upgrades (Deathfire or Deathrain) or are already good on their own (Tomax).

I have been running a four TIE Bomber list with pretty good success (I almost felt bad when people dropped two big ship lists against it... almost), and I am excited as heck for this upgrade and the possibilities it brings to the Bomber, and being able to not run them in formation.

Jonas with a punisher a combination of bombers/Tie D defenders/or Aggressors with turrets would be absolutely terrifying to me on the approach. This also makes me not want to put LRS on the bombers/ punishers so i could hit up a lightweight frame and have a much better and dangerous ship by a long shot for 4 points. ****.

The requirement of a focus also makes this more appealing on AS punishers than bombers

I think this puts bombers in a pretty cool place, dont go thinking its super good though because they still have those Red-2 turn's. But at least they're viable now.

I like the slight trend of releasing stuff that beefs up the selection of viable low cost ships and generics.

Another cool thing about Unguided rockets:

One of the issues with Bomber/Punisher Ace's is that you kit them with one big Missile/Torpedoe (Usually Homing Missile), then after spending that youre dead in the water with your 2 attack dice. Alternatively you kit multiple big ordinance and are bloating a single vulnerable ship with a lot of points.

This upgrade means you can do Extra munitions+proton in the torp slots, and this in the missile slots, with the obvious benefit that you get a better attack to bank on after spending the big stuff.

Also:

Tomax Bren.

Lightning reflexes.

Unguided rockets.

Lightweight frame.

29 points.

I'd like to contribute by using the ship stat pricing formula for from my thread HERE . My intent is to help put into perspective how much Unguided Rockets affects those that are able to equip it.

I guess what everyone wants to know first is, "Does this fix the Punisher?" According to my formula, the TIE-Punisher's stats are worth 15 when a Cutlass is worth 21, meaning it's currently paying 6 points for utility which is absurd. If you treat an Unguided Rockets card as equal to a 3-ATK primary weapon, then its base stats are worth exactly 22.25 points. That's actually.... REALLY GOOD! Equipping the card would put a Cutlass at 23 points, meaning you're paying 0.75pts for a System slot, PS2, and the Boost action. Once you factor in that System slots are consistently paying a 0.5pt tax and Boost usually costs ~0.25pts and we're looking at a legitimate fix for the TIE-Punisher! This is headline news!!! Please take into account, however, that you won't be able to maintain Boost and 3-ATK in the same turn, your range 1 damage is lower, you can't TL + Focus the same target, and your K-turn and shoot is weaker. On the upside, though, your range 3 attack is unaffected by the range 3 defense modifier. There's a lot of little quirks that prevent this from perfectly aligning with the model, but if you feel it's close enough to a genuine 3-ATK primary weapon then FFG just passed smiles all around.

Now lets get to the meat... Equipping a Cutlass with Unguided Rockets and Lightweight Frame puts its cost at 26pts when its stats are worth 27pts . Sure, that assumes LWF is up 100% of the time (and it usually will be close to that) and there's a lot of little limitations to Unguided Rockets but still. Hot damm!!!

CONCLUSION : A Cutlass with LWF and Unguided Rockets is priced to be an extremely efficient jouster, ESPECIALLY AT RANGE 3 vs 3-attack die enemies. Imperials now have a a new high HP jouster with (kinda) 2-agility and (kinda) 3-attack. You may now rejoice or cry depending on whether you play Imperials or not.

..... meh.

It has huge downsides for not being a true 3 dice attack: still no R1 spike. Worth more than the extra green at R3. K-turn shots are 2die no Focus. You can't combo this with TL or anything. It really does help a bombing punisher though. Helps, but its not a true efficiency fix. And even being 1 point or so overcosted can add up.

You can't use FCS to add to your dmg.

This still looks fun. But I'm not buying 4 Punishers just to ahve a joust list.

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (21)
Collision Detector (0)
Unguided Rockets (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (21)
Collision Detector (0)
Unguided Rockets (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (21)
Collision Detector (0)
Unguided Rockets (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (21)
Collision Detector (0)
Unguided Rockets (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

10 minutes ago, f0rbiddenc00kie said:

I'd like to contribute by using the ship stat pricing formula for from my thread HERE . My intent is to help put into perspective how much Unguided Rockets affects those that are able to equip it.

I guess what everyone wants to know first is, "Does this fix the Punisher?" According to my formula, the TIE-Punisher's stats are worth 15 when a Cutlass is worth 21, meaning it's currently paying 6 points for utility which is absurd. If you treat an Unguided Rockets card as equal to a 3-ATK primary weapon, then its base stats are worth exactly 22.25 points. That's actually.... REALLY GOOD! Equipping the card would put a Cutlass at 23 points, meaning you're paying 0.75pts for a System slot, PS2, and the Boost action. Once you factor in that System slots are consistently paying a 0.5pt tax and Boost usually costs ~0.25pts and we're looking at a legitimate fix for the TIE-Punisher! This is headline news!!! Please take into account, however, that you won't be able to maintain Boost and 3-ATK in the same turn, your range 1 damage is lower, you can't TL + Focus the same target, and your K-turn and shoot is weaker. On the upside, though, your range 3 attack is unaffected by the range 3 defense modifier. There's a lot of little quirks that prevent this from perfectly aligning with the model, but if you feel it's close enough to a genuine 3-ATK primary weapon then FFG just passed smiles all around.

Now lets get to the meat... Equipping a Cutlass with Unguided Rockets and Lightweight Frame puts its cost at 26pts when its stats are worth 27pts . Sure, that assumes LWF is up 100% of the time (and it usually will be close to that) and there's a lot of little limitations to Unguided Rockets but still. Hot damm!!!

CONCLUSION : A Cutlass with LWF and Unguided Rockets is priced to be an extremely efficient jouster, ESPECIALLY AT RANGE 3 vs 3-attack die enemies. Imperials now have a a new high HP jouster with (kinda) 2-agility and (kinda) 3-attack. You may now rejoice or cry depending on whether you play Imperials or not.

For two more points I can have a TIE Defender with x7. That has 3 attacks (that can be fully modified), 3 agility and potential for a free evade combined with a much superior dial and doesn't have to take a focus to fire. These rockets are an interesting choice for the Punisher but I'd much rather take them on a Bomber for cheapness.

Funny side note : first thing in a game that says : "haha lol nope"to palpatine

ps. I know corrector but corrector shuts down ALL mods.

22 minutes ago, Sasajak said:

For two more points I can have a TIE Defender with x7. That has 3 attacks (that can be fully modified), 3 agility and potential for a free evade combined with a much superior dial and doesn't have to take a focus to fire. These rockets are an interesting choice for the Punisher but I'd much rather take them on a Bomber for cheapness.

Yeah, you're still probably better off with a Defender. Just stating that they're "reasonably" priced now. Lots of little quirks, but if you want to play with them you don't have to feel significantly handicapped. They DO have 50% more HP than a Defender, a System slot, are better at range 3, and are cheaper, so it's not like they don't have anything going for them.

Not a fan of this upgrade. It acts like a cannon and not like a missile. Thematically Missiles and Torps were previously represented by discarding their card.

If I were to design an infinite missile, I'd add a reloading feature, for example may it a dual sided card the flips when used and flips back during the next turn's end phase. This way you are still interacting with the upgrade card and the effect is similar to discarding it, temporarily.

2 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

This still looks fun. But I'm not buying 4 Punishers just to ahve a joust list.

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (21)
Collision Detector (0)
Unguided Rockets (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (21)
Collision Detector (0)
Unguided Rockets (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (21)
Collision Detector (0)
Unguided Rockets (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (21)
Collision Detector (0)
Unguided Rockets (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

I'll try it and take pictures so everyone can admire the absurdity of 4 Punishers.

Well, with all the takl about Punishers and Bombers, i think it could be very worthwile on the ship it comes with - the Aggressor.

It depends on the Pilot skills and dial, but they are pretty cheap. I understand the hype is more on the fact tge ship can take a turret, but the Rockets seem viable...

4 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

I'll try it and take pictures so everyone can admire the absurdity of 4 Punishers.

I honestly think its a decent squad. Its has as many hitpoints as BBBBZ, but behind more agility. It doesn't throw as much red dice, but it should be a real pain to whittle down.

You know why I love this card?

It's cheap.

7 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

..... meh.

It has huge downsides for not being a true 3 dice attack: still no R1 spike. Worth more than the extra green at R3. K-turn shots are 2die no Focus. You can't combo this with TL or anything. It really does help a bombing punisher though. Helps, but its not a true efficiency fix. And even being 1 point or so overcosted can add up.

You can't use FCS to add to your dmg.

There is no R1 damage spike, but there isn't a range 3 defense boost either, one of the reasons HLC on Dash is so good is that you're hitting your opponent at full strength while your opponent is hitting you back at a penalty. I like to think that these features cancel each other out.

8 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

This still looks fun. But I'm not buying 4 Punishers just to ahve a joust list.

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (21)
Collision Detector (0)
Unguided Rockets (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (21)
Collision Detector (0)
Unguided Rockets (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (21)
Collision Detector (0)
Unguided Rockets (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (21)
Collision Detector (0)
Unguided Rockets (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

"I brought soontir fel, carnor jax, and the emperor in a lambda, what did you bring?"

"four TIE punishers"

"what?"

"you heard me"

On 3/15/2017 at 1:42 PM, Stay On The Leader said:

I'm surprised people are excited by this. The dials on the Bomber and Punisher really forgo running them as dogfighters and the short term damage output is far less than just packing missiles and Guidance Chips/LRS, and 15 red dice without rerolls has to be weaker than 12 red dice from a Crack Swarm with Howlrunner support.

Looking at raw stats of the amount of hull and red dice is one thing, but when you can't point the **** things towards the enemy then it's entirely academic.

23 hours ago, Biophysical said:

The ship has a 1-straight and all the banks, it's not that hard to point it at things. Turns aren't ideal, but they're not that bad.

Agree with Biophysical. These guys don't have an Interceptor dial, but their dial is anything but bad. The only frustrating part is that if I have a TL, I can usually keep someone in my front arc with a Barrel Roll. These rockets require the Focus, so no BR for reposition. Still, I don't think the Tie Bomber has a bad dial at all!

If I can find the list to make it work, I think Tomax Bren with Crack Shot and the Fanatical Devotion condition from Hux should be pretty consistent, annoying damage. It also opens up his barrel roll for positioning a bit better since he won't need to take the Focus action.

So heres something to chew on to make Unguided better.

It does not call out who is modding the dice: it specifically says "Your attack dice can be modified only by spending a focus token for its usual effect"
This means the opponent cannot mess with your attack either. Its not saying "You may only mod your attack with a focus token for its normal effect" so NOBODY can mod it outside that focus token.

No Jammer or forced rerolls are allowed against this. Which as someone pointed out in the super thread, makes sense considering theyre basically "point and click" missiles with nothing to slice to mess up their aiming.

10 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

I'll try it and take pictures so everyone can admire the absurdity of 4 Punishers.

Yes.

this. ????

37 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

So heres something to chew on to make Unguided better.

It does not call out who is modding the dice: it specifically says "Your attack dice can be modified only by spending a focus token for its usual effect"
This means the opponent cannot mess with your attack either. Its not saying "You may only mod your attack with a focus token for its normal effect" so NOBODY can mod it outside that focus token.

No Jammer or forced rerolls are allowed against this. Which as someone pointed out in the super thread, makes sense considering theyre basically "point and click" missiles with nothing to slice to mess up their aiming.

This.

actually, I'm liking this more and more....hummm? I think heychadwick and Babaghanoush WILL come up with one for Bombers when this fact settles into their creative and TIE loving minds! Cannot wait ?.....thanks Vineheart01, they'll thank you too!

16 hours ago, tsuruki said:

Another cool thing about Unguided rockets:

One of the issues with Bomber/Punisher Ace's is that you kit them with one big Missile/Torpedoe (Usually Homing Missile), then after spending that youre dead in the water with your 2 attack dice. Alternatively you kit multiple big ordinance and are bloating a single vulnerable ship with a lot of points.

This upgrade means you can do Extra munitions+proton in the torp slots, and this in the missile slots, with the obvious benefit that you get a better attack to bank on after spending the big stuff.

Also:

Tomax Bren.

Lightning reflexes.

Unguided rockets.

Lightweight frame.

29 points.

Since you cant mod the rockets outside of focus, i think Crack Bren might be better... Almost 3 agi, almost 3 atk and permanent Crack shot for 29 pts. It's really no that bad. It fills an empty spot. O Leader is 26, Inquisitor is 31, Jax and Soontir are 31+, Sabacc is 24, Duchess is 26. Only OL with Stealth is exactly 29 (from what i remember). Now whos better betwen OL and Crack Bren with U-Rockets?