5 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

This. Striker is nice and potentially more nimble (though also sometimes cumbersome with ailerons) but 2 HPs extra with exactly the same defence is huge.

As someone who has flown Bombers quite a bit, I think this is more than fair. The Bomber dial is just really, really hard to work with. I think this is the major reason you don't see them as a major alpha strike force super often and why even pilots with great abilities like Tomax don't see a great deal of top level play. The more tools they have though to make up for that, the more likely they are to make it in top tier lists.

1 minute ago, Kdubb said:

As someone who has flown Bombers quite a bit, I think this is more than fair. The Bomber dial is just really, really hard to work with. I think this is the major reason you don't see them as a major alpha strike force super often and why even pilots with great abilities like Tomax don't see a great deal of top level play. The more tools they have though to make up for that, the more likely they are to make it in top tier lists.

Especially when their stats are so efficient. Scimitars already are only a hair below Academy TIEs. And now they kind of get to purchase an additional attack die for just 2 points!

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

The idea that deathrain will manage to expend all his bombs and still shoot is cute.

It might be useful on the closing turns or ones where a bomb isn't useful though, but is that worth the points?

Let's not get patronising, now. I agree that it's not the likliest scenario, but it's still a possiblity (certainly one I've witnessed firsthand) - it depends on what else is in your list and what your opponent prioritises. And yes, I do believe it is worth 2pts to make his gun at least relevant on any turn where he hasn't used a bomb, for whatever reason. Far too soon to tell for sure, of course.

2 minutes ago, MalusCalibur said:

Let's not get patronising, now. I agree that it's not the likliest scenario, but it's still a possiblity (certainly one I've witnessed firsthand) - it depends on what else is in your list and what your opponent prioritises. And yes, I do believe it is worth 2pts to make his gun at least relevant on any turn where he hasn't used a bomb, for whatever reason. Far too soon to tell for sure, of course.

I think the most important point where Rockets are relevant on him is the first turn of combat, where it is really hard to have a bomb deployed in the previous activation phase.

Just now, Admiral Deathrain said:

I think the most important point where Rockets are relevant on him is the first turn of combat, where it is really hard to have a bomb deployed in the previous activation phase.

Agreed. Though it should also be noted that I'm suggesting taking fewer bombs on him on the first place (in the interests of keeping his cost down), so the scenario of him running out yet still being alive is made more likely.

1 minute ago, MalusCalibur said:

Agreed. Though it should also be noted that I'm suggesting taking fewer bombs on him on the first place (in the interests of keeping his cost down), so the scenario of him running out yet still being alive is made more likely.

I am pretty set on 8 points of bombs, with EM, Seismics, and Conner Nets. Maybe the Seismics should be scrapped for LWF, though. My build is really old.

7 minutes ago, Babaganoosh said:

I wonder how it would fare in a head-to-head with a conventional TIE swarm, since LWF wouldn't always be triggering

The Bombers will have the advantage at range 3. Things will be a wash at range 1. I think that 3 reds against 3 greens is probably better than 2 reds on 2 greens so I'd give that range band to the Bombers.

5 bombers is going to be 30 points of hull on the board. That's a big advantage over what the TIE swarm will be able to bring.

43 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

The Rocket/LWF Scimitar for 20 points seems like a terrific jouster. Similar to the Delta/x7, but at a different point level. 5, 3+ ace, 2+ RAC, all are good.

In the 5-swarm, it seems like it completely out classes other historic jousting lists like BBBBZ or TIE Swarm, because of that extra AGI.

I think the TIE swarm might be one of the natural predators for this list, actually. Low PS blocks to deny actions, two attack dice to mitigate LWF, and the traditional Howl rerolls will be potent.

Interestingly, the wording of this means that these cannot be affected by either Palp or Sensor Jammer.

13 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Oh I like that, Snapshot to generate more focus so you can also use it on Defense! What to do with the 6 leftover points, though?

Bombs?

15 minutes ago, Babaganoosh said:

I wonder how it would fare in a head-to-head with a conventional TIE swarm, since LWF wouldn't always be triggering

Advantage bombers still, I think.

If at Range 3, both sides get 3 greens, but the Bombers are throwing 3 dice vs the TIE Fighter's 2 dice. If it's a 7-8 tie swarm, some are Academy Pilots, and they get PS killed.

Range 2 is advantage TIE Fighters.

Range 1 is still probably advantage TIE Fighters, but it's close.

Overall, it's close, but I might be wrong.

5 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

I am pretty set on 8 points of bombs, with EM, Seismics, and Conner Nets. Maybe the Seismics should be scrapped for LWF, though. My build is really old.

Here's the build I have in mind:

Deathrain (TIE Punisher)

-Enhanced Scopes

-Unguided Rockets

-Conner Net

-Extra Munitions

35pts

You still get the strength of his bomb placement (ensuring maximum value from those Nets) while also not sacrificing too many points (35 is cheap for a named Punisher!) or as much in terms of firepower.

Just now, Biophysical said:

Bombs?

Advantage bombers still, I think.

If at Range 3, both sides get 3 greens, but the Bombers are throwing 3 dice vs the TIE Fighter's 2 dice. If it's a 7-8 tie swarm, some are Academy Pilots, and they get PS killed.

Range 2 is advantage TIE Fighters.

Range 1 is still probably advantage TIE Fighters, but it's close.

Overall, it's close, but I might be wrong.

I think you are wrong, actually, if there are Academy TIEs in the mix, because as strong as the Scimitars are, they are very weak to being blocked by PS1 ships. Not that it makes the swarm matchup unwinnable, but it will make it a harsh piloting contest.

maybe I shouldn't be worried, but the concept of a 4x list with 6h 3s with reinforce, or a 4x list with 5h 5s (40 HITS NEEDED!)
really worries me.

I think back to my poor interceptors with a piddly 3 hull, or even bombers with 6, and just think that flying against these lists the variance is just almost guaranteed to kill you. At least against B's I knew that once you got through the shields there wasn't long to go..

this means that as awesome as this upgrade is, I really worry it won't have the impact we think it will because of the state of the meta

14 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

I think you are wrong, actually, if there are Academy TIEs in the mix, because as strong as the Scimitars are, they are very weak to being blocked by PS1 ships. Not that it makes the swarm matchup unwinnable, but it will make it a harsh piloting contest.

It all depends on Range. Bombers will own Range 3, and I think have better range control. Also, Bombers don't need to fly in formation, so you can block one, but maybe not others. Either way, I think it comes down to piloting, which is cool.

Might be good:, 3 Rocket Scimitars + Deathrain. You can get 4 punchy ships, and one of them can own maneuver-dependent ships.

It gets expensive as hell but maybe throw Unguided Rockets on something with LRS+APT (and maybe EM). Lock your APT target of choice round one. Fly around taking the focus action and attacking with the Unguided Rockets unless your Target Locked target ends up in range.

Deathfire seems like he'd benefit from these. He's cheap, he does cool stuff with bombs. This gives him a worthwhile attack without making him get expensive or need to skip on bombs. These work nicely with his low PS as well.

3 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Deathfire seems like he'd benefit from these. He's cheap, he does cool stuff with bombs. This gives him a worthwhile attack without making him get expensive or need to skip on bombs.

Yeah, normally you have to use primaries, settle for a control warhead, or pay big for a Homing Missile. With this, I could see him just buying a bomb and the Rockets for 24 points. Don't even worry about Extra Munitions.

I do wonder if LWF is really worth it, though, as if you want your good attack, it will only add a third unmodified die. Is an unmodified green worth 2 points?

I'm surprised people are excited by this. The dials on the Bomber and Punisher really forgo running them as dogfighters and the short term damage output is far less than just packing missiles and Guidance Chips/LRS, and 15 red dice without rerolls has to be weaker than 12 red dice from a Crack Swarm with Howlrunner support.

Looking at raw stats of the amount of hull and red dice is one thing, but when you can't point the **** things towards the enemy then it's entirely academic.

1 minute ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I'm surprised people are excited by this. The dials on the Bomber and Punisher really forgo running them as dogfighters and the short term damage output is far less than just packing missiles and Guidance Chips/LRS, and 15 red dice without rerolls has to be weaker than 12 red dice from a Crack Swarm with Howlrunner support.

Looking at raw stats of the amount of hull and red dice is one thing, but when you can't point the **** things towards the enemy then it's entirely academic.

The dials are nowhere near that bad. They are about as good as an X-Wing. I have played enough with TIE Bombers that I don't feel like the dial is much of an issue.

7 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I'm surprised people are excited by this. The dials on the Bomber and Punisher really forgo running them as dogfighters and the short term damage output is far less than just packing missiles and Guidance Chips/LRS, and 15 red dice without rerolls has to be weaker than 12 red dice from a Crack Swarm with Howlrunner support.

Looking at raw stats of the amount of hull and red dice is one thing, but when you can't point the **** things towards the enemy then it's entirely academic.

In general I think squads that just spam a single ship can be fun but ultimately don't tend to be that competitive (there are exceptions). I think the best uses for Unguided Rockets are going to be giving a cheap but decent attack to ships that you were bringing for another reason. Tossing these on Jonas when you are bringing him for rerolls, a ship you are bringing for bombs, or maybe a Crackshot Tomax seems like where we'll probably see these the most.

Shouldnt Rebels be getting these too.... now that Imperials get TLT?

I would love to use those on my Z-95s for example. This way they would have been back in the meta again... playable!

1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

Yeah, normally you have to use primaries, settle for a control warhead, or pay big for a Homing Missile. With this, I could see him just buying a bomb and the Rockets for 24 points. Don't even worry about Extra Munitions.

I was actually just thinking how much I liked a very cheap Deathfire with Proximity Mines and these. It's 22pts for an X-Wing that can barrel roll and has one set of bombs, and bonus tricks for delivering them. Not bad on price. The old problem with Deathfire was that if you spent too much on bombs, he'd die without dropping them at all. Spend too little, and he becomes pretty useless after expending his first payload. At least now, he can drop a bomb and then still have some teeth. I'm on board.

I can see it on Tomax, though the output cost for that ship always seems a little prohibitive.

5 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

The dials are nowhere near that bad. They are about as good as an X-Wing. I have played enough with TIE Bombers that I don't feel like the dial is much of an issue.

Bro, didn't you hear? Nowadays, all dials without white K-Turns and S-Loops are considered bad.