Hello everyone, we are playing labirynth of ruin and we are in the final mission. The first to die is definitely beastmaster but the wolf is still on the playing field. My question is the wolf can benefit from the skills (predator, survivalist) even if the hero is dead and can no longer return to the game?

1 hour ago, Perseoo said:

Hello everyone, we are playing labirynth of ruin and we are in the final mission. The first to die is definitely beastmaster but the wolf is still on the playing field. My question is the wolf can benefit from the skills (predator, survivalist) even if the hero is dead and can no longer return to the game?

Such a great question! I'd definitely check out the CRRG here in the forums. If you need a quick answer, my guess would be that everything the player has when defeated is gone, but that could include the wolf too. I would say it's a situation close to the hero that can respec during encounters.

Might be wrong but would think if the beastmaster dies you'd lose the wolf but the predator ability affects stand up/revival so it is ambiguous- does it get removed and have to be replaced by playing the 'Bound by the hunt' card next round or later after standing up or being revived? You'd have to be eligible to be able to use the predator/ bound by the hunt abilities though and while knocked out I'd say they are non-functional as that ends your turn, still not sure if that means you'd have to remove the wolf token though. Maybe not though, unless this is a corrected error the rules do state it is when the familiar is defeated that it is removed:

When a familiar is defeated, remove it from the map.

Some familiars, such as the Reanimate, are treated as figures (as indicated by its Familiar card).

They may be targeted and affected by monster attacks, hero abilities, and Overlord cards that target a hero.

A hero player may activate each familiar his hero controls once during his hero turn.

Thus I think the wolf stays on the board but will be useless until the beastmaster returns to play as a defeated hero's turn is over:

When a hero is defeated, he is knocked out. If a hero is defeated at any point during his own turn, that hero's turn immediately ends.

A knocked out hero cannot receive any Condition cards and is immune to all attacks and most hero abilities.

Unless revived by another hero, a knocked out hero may only perform one action on his next turn, and that action must be to stand back up (see “Stand Up” on page 10).

Hero players may only target a knocked out hero with an ability that would allow the knocked out hero to recover any amount of damage.

('Knocked out' in rules, core set)

The hero can return to the game in most quest stages - however if your finale from Labyrinth of Ruin is 'Endless Night' and the beastmaster has been webbed and thrown in the pit, or is knocked out in the pit and later webbed before escaping the pit then the beastmaster can no longer play in this campaign this game (so unless there's a 'change class' card and another hero able to be beastmaster I reckon the wolf is now just a wolf on the board, with no beastmaster in play it can't do anything useful.) If your finale is 'A Glimmer of Hope' I don't see anything stopping ko'd heroes returning to the game so if the wolf survives until then the beastmaster would be able to control it again once the beastmaster is active again.

Clarification:

Errata and FAQ Version 1.6

Updated 1/18/2016

Q: Can a hero activate a familiar while knocked out?

A: Yes, a familiar can be activated before the knocked out hero performs a stand up action, but not after (because standing up immediately ends the

hero’s turn).

Don't think this changes the theory above for 'Endless Night' though.

From Sadgit's Community Rules Reference Guide, page 13:

A knocked out hero may:

• perform a stand up action on his next turn, however he is not required to stand up.
• equip items.
• activate his familiar (not in the turn after being defeated or after performing a stand up action).
• perform a free stand up action after an encounter is finished and recover all fatigue.
• be targeted by abilities whose primary effect is related to healing (e.g. Prayer of Healing). Notably, the Prophet's Soothing Insight cannot target a knocked out hero, as its primary effect is granting the Insight token and healing is a result of gaining the Insight token.
• regain all Health including bonuses from abilities if another hero uses a Health potion on him.

So that leads me to believe that if the Beastmaster is knocked out, the wolf will stay on the field. Furthermore, on the same page:

A knocked out hero may not:

• use abilities or benefit from passive abilities unless explicitly allowed.
• trade with other heroes.
• receive Condition cards; he is immune to all attacks.
• suffer fatigue past his Stamina, nor [heart] past his Health.
• recover fatigue unless simultaneously recovering [heart].
• discard elixir tokens.
• be targeted by abilities (except healing abilities, see below), as he is not on the map, and spaces cannot be counted to him.

Both Predator and Survivalist do not explicitly state that their effects continue to work once the hero is knocked out, so I'd say no, they won't work.

Knocked out heroes and familiars

• According to the rules (and confirmed by the cited uFAQ above), familiars may be activated when a hero is knocked out.
• Knocked out heroes may not use abilities or benefit from passive abilities unless explicitly allowed. However, other figures (such as the wolf) may benefit from passive abilities of knocked out heroes. These abilities must not require the knocked out hero to “use this card“, “exhaust this card“, pay fatigue, and must not imply the hero to be on the map (see last bullet under heading "Knocking out a hero" in the CRRG). Both, Predator and Survivalist fulfill these critera and are therefore in effect even if the Beastmaster is knocked out.

Slain heroes and familiars

In some quests heroes can be slain, e.g. in Endless Night (LOR), The Man who would be King (TSR) and Gryvorn Unleashed (TSR). A slain hero is "removed from the game".

• My interpretation is that, in contrast to knocked out heroes, a hero who is removed from the game does not have a turn anymore. As familiars can only be activated in the turn of the hero that controls the familiar, the familiar stays on the map but cannot be activated anymore.
• It is also possible that "removed from the game" is identical to "returned to the game box". In this case, all cards, tokens and figures (including familiars) associated with the hero would be removed from the map and the play area.

In any case, I think that familiars of slain heroes cannot activate anymore.

Something that confused me a bit when playing and when looking into this for Perseoo was the difference between familiar/class cards requiring an action to use and ones not requiring an action to use as well as some of the logic for bringing some of the class cards into play (when their text does/does not apply to the game, until when etc) because of this, the rules for class card use are a bit brief, any tips?

Class cards are each a skill of the hero with that class so in terms of passive abilities etc I am still unsure if a knocked out hero's familiar would be active or inactive, this and what happens to slain heroes (all they have being lost makes sense but the familiar may remain on the board but of no benefit) might need some confirmation. If the benefits of the familiar are related to the skill of its owner then this gets confusing due to the abilities rule (are class card descriptions abilities and if so for familiars do they belong to the owner rather than the familiar?) and things such as the wolf being 'your wolf'.

If the familiar is inactive in such situations then the benefits linked to it may remain on standby (which has to be the case due to the stand up/revival element of 'Predator' with the noted exception of slain heroes) the question is how.

Thought: some familiars are of the 'you have the Name familiar' (on the hero card) type- it makes sense that these would be removed from the board for slain heroes; others are added to play through the cards linked to a hero class and if this rule still applies When a familiar is defeated, remove it from the map it suggests even a slain hero's familiar stays on the board - for these the question is linked to when the wording of such class cards ceases to apply / if the familiar still offers any benefits and for familiars of a specific hero if the 'familiar being defeated' rule still applies.

My golden rule in play is if you're not sure of something in the rules decide between players what makes most sense logically for the situation that play session then look into it afterwards for future reference!

Class cards include Hero skills and the starting equipment of a class. Everything printed on cards or Hero sheets is considered to be an ability.

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I am still unsure if a knocked out hero's familiar would be active or inactive

A knocked out hero has a turn, even if he decides to do nothing. A familiar of a knocked out hero may be activated in the hero's turn. It cannot be activated in the turn after the hero is defeated or after the hero performs a stand up action, as in both cases the hero's turn immediately ends. This has been confirmed by FFG representatives.

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what happens to slain heroes (all they have being lost makes sense but the familiar may remain on the board but of no benefit) might need some confirmation

I agree that this detail in not 100% covered by the current rule set and a support question might be warranted.

Does this answer you questions?