To answer the original topic of this post and the question about points, page 3 of the Rules Reference says:

Quote

Points
Each army consists of units and upgrade cards. Units and upgrades both cost points, and the total point value of everything in an army cannot exceed 200.

Units
An army can include any number of units of any types from the same faction. Each unit can be added to an army in different configurations, each of which costs a different number of points. The possible configurations for a particular unit are shown on the back of its unit card in its costing table.

1 hour ago, Budgernaut said:

To answer the original topic of this post and the question about points, page 3 of the Rules Reference says:

Would you happen to have a pdf of the rules or scans you could send me? I have a lot of terminology updates to make on the wiki that I can't do till I've actually seen the rules. (I saw you already started doing some of that, so thanks!)

I'll hopefully get my ebay copy next week, so then I can fix a lot of stuff.

If anyone also has good quality scans of the cards we don't have then that would help as well. You can either PM me or just throw them up there yourself if you prefer.

Thanks in advance!

40 minutes ago, Willange said:

Would you happen to have a pdf of the rules or scans you could send me? I have a lot of terminology updates to make on the wiki that I can't do till I've actually seen the rules. (I saw you already started doing some of that, so thanks!)

I'll hopefully get my ebay copy next week, so then I can fix a lot of stuff.

If anyone also has good quality scans of the cards we don't have then that would help as well. You can either PM me or just throw them up there yourself if you prefer.

Thanks in advance!

I took a note out of Kubernes(?) book and took screenshots of the books in the Bell of Lost Souls video. It's been fun, but the pages are far from complete.

9 hours ago, Budgernaut said:

I took a note out of Kubernes(?) book and took screenshots of the books in the Bell of Lost Souls video. It's been fun, but the pages are far from complete.

Those were fun to read over! Now if I could just find out the names of the upgrade types... It bothers me that the guy skipped pages 20-21 haha

51 minutes ago, Willange said:

Those were fun to read over! Now if I could just find out the names of the upgrade types... It bothers me that the guy skipped pages 20-21 haha

Artifact, Champion, Equipment, Heavy, Heraldry, Music, Training, Unique

Is heavy that kind of 'ballista' looking thing? I'm guessing as well that champion is that 'feather crown' thing? I'm guessing the weave pattern is training? Thanks much for this info!

EDIT: another question, is champion the one that lets you embed champions or the upgrades to the champions (aka feather crown or guy holding spear)? What's the name of the other one. Sorry to pester you with questions, but I was literally going to update stuff as soon as I got those names.

2 minutes ago, Willange said:

Is heavy that kind of 'ballista' looking thing? I'm guessing as well that champion is that 'feather crown' thing? I'm guessing the weave pattern is training? Thanks much for this info!

any time, the heavy is the balista thing, its for the front line rune golem and such. champion looks like a soldier with a sword raised, the feather crown thing is unique, looks like its for upgrades that are only available to a specific character. the weave pattern is training yes. the amulet looking one is artifact. everything else is pretty self explanatory.

1 minute ago, Klaxas said:

any time, the heavy is the balista thing, its for the front line rune golem and such. champion looks like a soldier with a sword raised, the feather crown thing is unique, looks like its for upgrades that are only available to a specific character. the weave pattern is training yes. the amulet looking one is artifact. everything else is pretty self explanatory.

Thanks! You're awesome!

1 minute ago, Willange said:

Thanks! You're awesome!

anytime. i think i may make a list using 2 cores see if i can get it to 200 points with a reasonable list. i will probably post it.

@Klaxas I tried making a list with two cores a few weeks ago, but I don't think I could get it very close to 200. Maybe in the 170s? I can't recall. The trouble is that the hero is 30ish points of your list, so not being able to use the second hero cuts down on your ability to fill all the points.

Nothing says the we have to use 200 points all the time. For the first games, 100-150 will be much better than trying to get to 200 with too few choices. When the extensions start rolling in, then the official size will start to make sense. And after a few waves, we'll have ourselves some nice 300 points mega battles

4 hours ago, Budgernaut said:

@Klaxas I tried making a list with two cores a few weeks ago, but I don't think I could get it very close to 200. Maybe in the 170s? I can't recall. The trouble is that the hero is 30ish points of your list, so not being able to use the second hero cuts down on your ability to fill all the points.

I'm planning to use an alternate paint scheme on my second hero, at least then I can switch the two in and out and it's always fun to try different paint colors out on different characters. Because I can't really see a secondary market for the core hero.. or is there some sort of use I am missing?

20 hours ago, Kubernes said:

You can do that in 40k and most miniature games, but it's going to cost you. A lot in the case of GW. The great thing about X-Wing, Armada, and Runewars are those upgrades and how they can easily change the makeup of an army. They also really help drive down the price in comparison.

A good example of this is the upcoming buff to IG-88 in skirmish mode for Imperial Assault. This is a popular thematic character that has not seen any play due to his cost not being worth what he brings to the table. So FFG went out and decided to fix that by including a 0 cost upgrade card in the next wave of blister packs. It's a very clever move. Upgrade cards are the way to go because they can help prevent power creep.

Why are upgrade cards the way to go? I do like the upgrade card thing but you can easily errata/FAQ soemthing if it is to good/bad/weak without the need to wait for an upcoming card, so i would say they are one way to do something but not the penultimate way. Like many other things in miniature wargaming there are many different ways to do stuff and they are mostly different instead of better, like range ruler versus templates for movement.

21 minutes ago, Iceeagle85 said:

Why are upgrade cards the way to go? I do like the upgrade card thing but you can easily errata/FAQ soemthing if it is to good/bad/weak without the need to wait for an upcoming card, so i would say they are one way to do something but not the penultimate way. Like many other things in miniature wargaming there are many different ways to do stuff and they are mostly different instead of better, like range ruler versus templates for movement.

When I put a series of upgrades on my unit, just gameplay wise, I like having an individual card for each one. I don't have to look anything up in a book, I don't have to memorize page numbers, I don't have to find colored tabs.

What kind of upgrade it is, what units it can go on, what it does, all right there. I can turn the card sideways to indicate that I exhausted the ability, I can flip it over when I lose the upgrade, I can put charge tokens on it if it's got limited activations.

I'm a very tactile person. It's why I like miniature games so much in the first place. Having these components improves my gameplay experience immensely. I have components to manipulate to remind me of gamestates, and when I'm list building I can flip through my cards, putting them in little organized sections as I visualize my plan and how my army is going to function.

Now, you could do the same for 40k or games like it yourself, organizing/printing cards for the purpose. It's extra time and effort, and I know because I've done things like this in games for years, but it's always proven worth it for me. FFG just takes the time and effort out of the equation, leaving me with more time to fiddle with the things I *want* to fiddle with, like the minis themselves.

It also scratches the psychological collector's itch for some of us. There's something about collecting cards that just "does it" for some people.

I said I understand it and I like but for me personaly it's not the only way to go.
And it can make the game more complex for the players and the rule testers with that many interactions possibilities and with a business model like it can get expensive to get all cards you need or want( yes i know the same can be said for GW with heavy or special weapons) but for me it's not the best or only way to do things.
And yes i never understood whats so cool about having a card which you have to wait for fox something while you just could put out an errata for free.

Yes of course I unerstand that it makes games easier cause you don't have to remember things but where's the difference between searching one card in a big pile or using a books index to find something your looking for?
Please don't get my wrong i do not hate cards but for me there are not the only or best way to do things.

8 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

When I put a series of upgrades on my unit, just gameplay wise, I like having an individual card for each one. I don't have to look anything up in a book, I don't have to memorize page numbers, I don't have to find colored tabs.

What kind of upgrade it is, what units it can go on, what it does, all right there. I can turn the card sideways to indicate that I exhausted the ability, I can flip it over when I lose the upgrade, I can put charge tokens on it if it's got limited activations.

I'm a very tactile person. It's why I like miniature games so much in the first place. Having these components improves my gameplay experience immensely. I have components to manipulate to remind me of gamestates, and when I'm list building I can flip through my cards, putting them in little organized sections as I visualize my plan and how my army is going to function.

Now, you could do the same for 40k or games like it yourself, organizing/printing cards for the purpose. It's extra time and effort, and I know because I've done things like this in games for years, but it's always proven worth it for me. FFG just takes the time and effort out of the equation, leaving me with more time to fiddle with the things I *want* to fiddle with, like the minis themselves.

It also scratches the psychological collector's itch for some of us. There's something about collecting cards that just "does it" for some people.

Cards (either as upgrades or basic information) really seem to be the way miniature games are going today. I'm all for having companies put most of the relevant information on a card. I like that Malifaux, Warmachine/Hordes, numerous FFG games, and now Flames of War are pushing that aspect.

Edit: I'm sure there are a number of other games that also use cards.

3 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

Cards (either as upgrades or basic information) really seem to be the way miniature games are going today. I'm all for having companies put most of the relevant information on a card. I like that Malifaux, Warmachine/Hordes, numerous FFG games, and now Flames of War are pushing that aspect.

Edit: I'm sure there are a number of other games that also use cards.

But except for the FFG games those games just have statcards, which are in my opinion always a good thing.

4 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

Cards (either as upgrades or basic information) really seem to be the way miniature games are going today. I'm all for having companies put most of the relevant information on a card. I like that Malifaux, Warmachine/Hordes, numerous FFG games, and now Flames of War are pushing that aspect.

Edit: I'm sure there are a number of other games that also use cards.

Maelstrom's Edge, while unfortunately not picking up any steam at all, has some pretty good stat cards, and I absolutely love their mission/objective card system.

5 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

Maelstrom's Edge, while unfortunately not picking up any steam at all, has some pretty good stat cards, and I absolutely love their mission/objective card system.

Well they dont seem to get coverage, I know of it beacuse I read about the kickstarter in a miniature wargame forum and I'm sometimes (when follwing links) on DakkaDakka but for other games you can find videos and articles all over the net.

28 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

When I put a series of upgrades on my unit, just gameplay wise, I like having an individual card for each one. I don't have to look anything up in a book, I don't have to memorize page numbers, I don't have to find colored tabs.

What kind of upgrade it is, what units it can go on, what it does, all right there. I can turn the card sideways to indicate that I exhausted the ability, I can flip it over when I lose the upgrade, I can put charge tokens on it if it's got limited activations.

All of this post but specifically these parts are why I like the upgrade system. For IA they have redistributed Errataed cards through their tournament kits, which is great, but otherwise we would be stuck looking back at the FAQ quite frequently. It can slow down gameplay and sometimes you won't even catch the error or might catch it late and that could have a negative impact on the experience. Having it all summarized in a handy card in front of you just makes life easier.

22 minutes ago, Iceeagle85 said:

I said I understand it and I like but for me personaly it's not the only way to go.
And it can make the game more complex for the players and the rule testers with that many interactions possibilities and with a business model like it can get expensive to get all cards you need or want( yes i know the same can be said for GW with heavy or special weapons) but for me it's not the best or only way to do things.
And yes i never understood whats so cool about having a card which you have to wait for fox something while you just could put out an errata for free.

Yes of course I unerstand that it makes games easier cause you don't have to remember things but where's the difference between searching one card in a big pile or using a books index to find something your looking for?
Please don't get my wrong i do not hate cards but for me there are not the only or best way to do things.

Fair points, but doesn't the books index become out dated once things are errated? Then we have to print the erataed portion as well, which just adds another sheet to keep track of, which in turn is as much or more hassle than the card?

I'm not familiar with 40k at all so forgive my ignorance if I am getting this completely wrong. As I said above, FFG hasn't charged us for any errated goods, they have been distributed through tournament kits, or in the case of IG-88, come in a blister pack. If you are buying that pack just for the IG-88 fix then yes that would be an un wanted expense.. but I look at it as you are buying the blister pack and the distribution of the card is an optional added bonus. (In this case it is a buff or fix but not an errata). You are also welcome to keep playing him the way he is, and in fact in the campaign mode the card can't be used so he stays the same anyway.

I believe FFG also said you won't have to buy opposing factions for these upgrade cards, which if true is a massive difference from X-Wing or IA and will be much easier on the wallet. I could be wrong on that though, I believe @jek was who I saw posting about that, so maybe he can supply confirmation.

14 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

Maelstrom's Edge, while unfortunately not picking up any steam at all, has some pretty good stat cards, and I absolutely love their mission/objective card system.

There's a lot of competition now in sci-fi miniatures so I can see why. If 8th edition 40k crashes and burns, then more of the market will open up.

9 minutes ago, FrogTrigger said:

Fair points, but doesn't the books index become out dated once things are errated? Then we have to print the erataed portion as well, which just adds another sheet to keep track of, which in turn is as much or more hassle than the card?

Why would it? If you change a sentence or two, point costs or stat line the it does not change the page number. Yes printing stuff out can be anyoing but there is also memorizing (which you normaly do with core rules + often used spacial rules and whatnot) and what I meant about paying is for example that shwon IG-88 cards ore some of the cards from the ACE/Veteran X_Wing boxes, here you have to wait for the box and you have to buy it to get that card (yes you can just print it for casual play) while if you use a errata you just have to download and print them. I know it's not exactly the same because even 0 point upgrades that twere intended as fixes take a upgrade slot so you might not always want to take them but if you did a errata you would normaly have that skill/stat change in your core stats so yes it can be calles a fix but I'd say it's very similiar, some X-Wing ships really needed those fix cards so there isn't that big a difference to an errata.
And i also know they said for thsi agme you will not need to buy other factions miniatures.
Again I just said that upgrade/mission/whatever cards are not neccesarily the way to go or the next best thing but they are nice to have, stat cards however are really something every modern game should have in my opinion.