Listening to the most recent Gold Squadron podcast, I was struck by how often the discussion circled back to making choices. Palpatine, Zuckuss, and (indirectly) X7 errata all create more opportunities for players to make "interesting choices." I sincerely hope that FFG is paying attention to these fixes and why the are being forced to change cards like these. If the game developers learn from these missteps we should see fewer cards in the future that decrease player choices.

(Sid Meier's ideas on game design don't apply universally and I don't want to get too sidetracked on game design theory here. I don't claim to be an expert or even particularly well-versed in the field. XWtMG is a pretty good fit for the strategy game model that Meier is famous for.)

Making "interesting choices" is one of the driving forces that makes X-wing fun to play. Predicting your opponent's next move and the fickle nature of luck also play important roles. Nearly all of the major errata can be explained as attempts to (re)introduce more interesting player choices.

Choosing a decloak direction after every other ship has moved is not an interesting choice. Using Palpatine (or not) after all dice have been rolled is not an interesting choice. Zuckussing all the dice forever is not an interesting choice.

"Interesting Choices" cannot be the only lens that should be used when considering new upgrades but I do hope that Mr. Davy and Mr. Brooks and company are paying attention to the pattern here.

(Manaroo, and the JM5K in general, is a different beast altogether. The ship is just too good for its cost.)

I believe FFG has been doing very well if you look at some of the latest ships that have come out. Look at the latest wave of ships and how many of them are "must have" ships before the latest FAQ? None, really. Going with the general attitude of "if it's not broken (OP), don't fly it" mentality, it means that the latest ships are pretty well balanced. That's a great thing! I think they have learned a lot of lessons on releasing ships and have worked to improve them.

The best part of this game, for myself, happens when there's so many possible choices involved for squad building. I've pretty much stopped playing at anything above a store level tournament mostly due to the staleness of the meta builds that were appearing. Last summer, it felt like it was Defenders everywhere. Then the Manaroo-centric lists showed up. I'm happy when there's some really tough choices needed in squad building that push and pull different people to build lists that are more suitable to their own style of playing than just copying some meta-list off the 'net and using it.

One thing that I've often seen, either here or on various Facebook groups is the "Yes, but that's very situational" when providing commentary back to a posted list. To me, that's the whole game. Everything is situational, it just depends on the situation. With The Great Nerfing of 2017(TM), more situations are going to happen. And that is a good thing (at least to me).

I think part of the issue is that non-choices where there's a very obvious tactical avenue (i.e. Palp if the ship would take a hit, use zuckuss on every positive result, pass tokens because the only thing you actually lose is your TL and that goes to someone else), it's also almost always a really *good* one, which is both dull - you have no meaningful choice to make - and annoying for your opponent, because they have no way to outplay it, they just have to out-luck it, and x-wing should be a game of skill, not a game of luck.

I have the same problem with K wings. Once you hit a certain skill floor, you remove a LOT of the meaningful decision making from the game, because my decisions almost stop mattering - you're going to bomb me regardless of what I choose, you're going to shoot me regardless of how well I outmanoeuvre you, you can arc dodge me whatever I do because of just HOW BIG 2 3-banks are.

1 hour ago, heychadwick said:

I believe FFG has been doing very well if you look at some of the latest ships that have come out. Look at the latest wave of ships and how many of them are "must have" ships before the latest FAQ? None, really. Going with the general attitude of "if it's not broken (OP), don't fly it" mentality, it means that the latest ships are pretty well balanced. That's a great thing! I think they have learned a lot of lessons on releasing ships and have worked to improve them.

Wave 9 and 10 have been pretty solid. Tie Striker just about buries you in decisions. Bo Shek is the poster-boy of interesting choices. Light Scyk introduces some real variety into a single ship. X7 and Tie/d were supposed to do the same but they just missed the mark on pricing.

It's a valid complaint that with more powerful cards, the game has moved in the direction of being a combo-driven card game like Magic or Pokemon. Not good! X-wing players want to play a Space-Dogfighting game... that is a singular theme among ALL xwing players no matter who they are.

I think a good bellweather is the viability of TIE swarms... when the game was younger we were told that TIE swarms are the 'shark' of x-wing... that it will always be viable and never change. Not so much these days. We'll know when the game is on the right track when the worst offenders (cards) are nerfed enough that basic non card-carrying ships are viable again in competitive play.

Casual is slightly different, because you can do things like introduce artificial balance into scenarios essentially doing your own nerfing... but it still makes casual play a whole lot smoother and more inclusive when it's based on a balanced game at the top levels of competition.

For example... merely changing the format of the game from 100/6 to some alternative would be considered 'casual' by many players... but when i try to do something similar with a game like 40k (i run a 40k combat patrol tournament) i have to affix a page-long list of special exceptions and rules just to prevent the system from being completely exploited by players wanting to win.

Of course cards are great, but in my opinion they should be there mostly for flavor and used as a tool to balance the ships themselves and create the opportunity for more 'interesting choices'. They should avoid like the plague those cards with open-ended and across the board effects (such as no range restriction, action cost, once per turn etc), anything that takes luck out of the game, and anything that confers a bonus without the player actually having to set something up the right way with their maneuvering and attack strategy.

So they are taking a step in the right direction... that is, nerfing the cards and abilities... we will know it's in a good place when good flying and generic pilots start to show up again. There will always be one or two ships that are just sub-par, that i can live with. I can even live with power creep as long as it's a slight, steady creep and older ships get love once in awhile. But the card combos are toxic!

11 minutes ago, Meade said:

anything that takes luck out of the game,

Why would you want the game to be more luck (and implicitly less skill) based ?

I can agree. Card combos are toxic. We want to fly star fighters, not play Magic the Gathering in space. (Though I do hear Magic is pretty fun for those who like it).

I also lament that the swarm is no longer considered the top of the meta. I do think that is telling that the game was going in a power creep direction.

Just now, LordBlades said:

Why would you want the game to be more luck (and implicitly less skill) based ?

I think he wants less luck.

However, luck makes games exciting and less predictable in a direct correlation sense. It requires the ability to mitigate and manage percentage chances, which was a skill that I saw had to be learned with games like Tactics Arena. The best players there directly mitigated luck in very obvious ways, made the most of their chances.

Also, honestly you want luck to change things sometimes: thats why Zuckusss isn't considered fun.

2 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

Why would you want the game to be more luck (and implicitly less skill) based ?

Of course there is a balance, you don't want the game to be all luck but you want some luck in the game, because a) if there is no luck then most of the choices will already be made for you. For example choosing to joust the other player... in a non-luck game if you are only slightly disadvantaged then the choice is already made for you. So it actually takes a lot of choices out of the game that way because a lot of times there is only one right answer and no fun of choosing between what's often a riskier but more rewarding choice or a steadier but more reliable choice.

b) it immediately makes all the non-luck based options sucky for tournament play, as competitive players will automatically gravitate towards cards that take luck out of the game (palpy, zuckuss), and for every one of these cards ten other cards that might be more situational or luck-based are suddenly unviable. If your number one priority is winning, you will make the choice to take the list that takes any luck out of the equation and sacrifice everything else that makes the game a game of skill in other areas (like maneuvering). You have a whole body of rules that depend on making choices for rewards, but then you just make some cards that cut out that entire step and you are just going through the motions of rolling the dice, re-rolling, modifying and in the end you could have just said 'this ship always gets 4 hits' instead of laying 5 cards down on the table.

c) it is boring. You basically know what is going to happen except from a few grey areas like knowing what the other player will/will not choose and some grey areas of knowing where the ships will place. It's not super terrible but a little 'spice' of chance makes the game a lot more entertaining.

Again, my comment is mostly aimed at cards like Palpatine, zuckuss. In the past it might have been whisper or PWT's but those are more on the side of taking maneuvering out of the game (but maneuvering is also a little bit of luck depending on how much you are just guessing what the other guy will do).

I don't mind nerfs to change the top of the meta gone. But the fact is that the design space is so crowded FFG felt that they had to go back and rewrite some pilot and upgrade cards in order to change the meta instead of just releasing new pilots and upgrade and letting accretion and power creep set in.

So we can expect more of this. I remember an interview with the later developers of X-wing and they explained that FFG was really against erratas and their policy was to only put in place if it was necessary. Once when Pen & ink changes for balance was inconceivable, that taboo has been broken and once a line has been crossed once it can be crossed again and again.

So now the question is what still can and still cannot be changed?

• I think point costs for the most part are solid however they could be adjusted not by pen & ink but by temporary lists that could add or subtract points on a seasonal basis, so adjusting point values on cards is still a possibility. Although permanently changing the point value on a card via pen & ink is not a likely scenario.
• Attributes like Firepower and hull are also set in but with more and more titles coming in as way to give a ship a unique characteristic those titles could come with more attribute modifications. As for pilot skill that was locked bu a pilot can be re-released with a higher pilot skill and a higher point cost.
• Upgrade slots seemed to be locked in so an upgrade type of a card won't change. However titles can shift upgrade slots around as with the TIE_shuttle title for the TIE Bomber.
• Ship models and bases seem to be set in physical world so changing those will not be likely to include changing the firing arcs. So PWTs will not turn into mobile firing arcs and ships without an aux arc will not be getting them. Titles and upgrades could lock out of arc attacks to in arc attacks only, or add effect such as increasing or decreasing the value of auxiliary arc attacks. Same goes for base size and maneuvers.
• Maneuvers are for the most part set in the physical world so we won't be seeing any 4 speed turns or 5 banks. Any type of movement that would require another template that is not found int the core set is likely to not be found. However reversals to maneuvers can be made with maneuvers that can rotate your ship 180 degrees or ones that use the rear to front guides instead of the front to rear guides. Difficulty of maneuvers can be adjusted. Also dial changing seems to be coming more frequently.
• Pilot abilities and upgrade card text is now completely subject to change with each and every FAQ. Range and firepower on secondary weapons are considered a lot like attributes so those will likely be free of any changes. Also for the most part range seems to be locked to 3 for standard with only huge ships and hardpoints having a range of 4 and 5. Unless a non-harddpoint secondary weapon comes in a later huge ship expansion pack, the status quo for attack range is likely not going to change.

Well there is what all can be changed and what cannot be changed given the current state of X-wing.

All of these faq's going to favourite a skill play, killing all the brainless squads.

"Emperor will save your ass all the time, by turning a green dice"
"You can roll 5 green dices, Zuckuss don't care...because I don't really care about stress. 1 or 50 doesn't change".
"Don't care about the distance, Fenn Rau will ever take all the tokens from Manaroo. Even between tables"
"You can bump, you can do a red, you can be stressed but the evade will ever come to your X7".

All of these things killing what X-Wing meant to be: a skill maneuver game. All of these doesn't care about your manevuer. That's not Rey pilot, nor the Millenium Title, nor a Quadjumper, nor Ketsu pilot etc...all of these things still work independently your maneuver skill.

So I really ENJOY these faqs! Let's bring back the old good X-Wing



PS: Wow, my english really sucks

3 hours ago, Cerve said:

you can do a red, you can be stressed but the evade will ever come to your X7"

Strictly speaking the only time you can do a red and get your evade is when you have Damaged Engine

5 hours ago, Meade said:

It's a valid complaint that with more powerful cards, the game has moved in the direction of being a combo-driven card game like Magic or Pokemon. Not good! X-wing players want to play a Space-Dogfighting game... that is a singular theme among ALL xwing players no matter who they are.

This, plus the fact that getting said cards, to perform said combos and thereby remain competitive, requires a constant stream of steady purchasing, at least if one wishes to participate in store tourneys and whatnot.

My local game group decided that enough was enough, especially once the releases strayed away from the ships of the original trilogy and old expanded universe.

Ironically, I also play a WWI-themed flying game called Wings of Glory which was the literal inspiration for X-Wing. My local game group, die-hard sci-fi and fantasy fans, eschewed Wings of Glory for years because they weren't so interested in historicals. Now they've found that it actually is the no-BS dogfighting game they were hoping to find in X-Wing (in Wings of Glory, the planes are the planes, and while there are pilot abilities, they are far more limited and less overwhelming than in X-Wing). Go figure!

21 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Strictly speaking the only time you can do a red and get your evade is when you have Damaged Engine

That's true, Defender doesn't have any 3+ red maneuver. My bad

4 hours ago, Marinealver said:

• Maneuvers are for the most part set in the physical world so we won't be seeing any 4 speed turns or 5 banks. Any type of movement that would require another template that is not found int the core set is likely to not be found. However reversals to maneuvers can be made with maneuvers that can rotate your ship 180 degrees or ones that use the rear to front guides instead of the front to rear guides. Difficulty of maneuvers can be adjusted. Also dial changing seems to be coming more frequently.

You know, a lot of absolutes/former-unthinkables already are gone from x-wing. FFG could just release a ship where the cardboard includes new maneuver templates (like e.g. 4turns) unique to the ship.

5 hours ago, Meade said:

I think a good bellweather is the viability of TIE swarms... when the game was younger we were told that TIE swarms are the 'shark' of x-wing... that it will always be viable and never change. Not so much these days. We'll know when the game is on the right track when the worst offenders (cards) are nerfed enough that basic non card-carrying ships are viable again in competitive play.

I agreed with most of what you said, and love that you used the term "bellwether."

5 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

I can agree. Card combos are toxic. We want to fly star fighters, not play Magic the Gathering in space.

I like the card combos, and I think they are a fun part of list building. OTOH, what I think is toxic is that a ship WITHOUT a card combo ain't worth poo-doo. Or, for that matter, a pilot without a special ability. This game needs to get back to a place where not only TIEs, but X-Wings, B-Wings, Z-95s, or anything else, can be flow unmodified and do well. It's been talked about before, but I really think a squadron mechanic is the solution--if I table several ships of the same type as a unit, they fly well together. Granted, that probably brings you back to a 1-card combo (the squadron card), but it isn't a party bus, either.

4 hours ago, Cerve said:

PS: Wow, my english really sucks

No, it doesn't.

9 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

You know, a lot of absolutes/former-unthinkables already are gone from x-wing. FFG could just release a ship where the cardboard includes new maneuver templates (like e.g. 4turns) unique to the ship.

I have wanted a U-turn maneuver (like in Attack Wing) for years. I also think that ships with their own specialty dice would be fun, too.

18 hours ago, Managarmr said:

You know, a lot of absolutes/former-unthinkables already are gone from x-wing. FFG could just release a ship where the cardboard includes new maneuver templates (like e.g. 4turns) unique to the ship.

You mean like the U-turn in Star Trek Attack Wing? Not likely, I think FFG wants to keep the concept of everything you need to play is in the core set. Models and upgrades are in the expansions and nothing else like dice or what not. Also keeps difficulty of having to replace lost components down.

Now of course they could change their policies on just about anything. They could adjust HWK to 2 Firepower make Rookie Pilots cost 20 points, add yellow and blue dice, remove the PWT from YT-1300s, un-nerf the cloak and what not. It is their game, but then again all of those changes would be getting close to making a second edition (not to mention drive many X-wing players to the Lovecraft games).

As for my statements those are based on what could be changed depending on the last FAQ. There is still a lot of things FFG can do and we can see that they are exploring those avenues.

59 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

You mean like the U-turn in Star Trek Attack Wing? Not likely, I think FFG wants to keep the concept of everything you need to play is in the core set.

Yes, I do. And, with that limitation in mind (which I think is dumb, oh well), I think you can mimic that maneuver as a 2-template barrel roll with a 180 change of facing. So, still possible with Core Templates Only.

The Core Set doesn't include a lot these days. Heck, if you ask me, even before red dice power creep there were not enough dice!! I bought 2 just for that (why buy a blister of dice when I can get more ships, too?).

2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Yes, I do. And, with that limitation in mind (which I think is dumb, oh well), I think you can mimic that maneuver as a 2-template barrel roll with a 180 change of facing. So, still possible with Core Templates Only.

The Core Set doesn't include a lot these days. Heck, if you ask me, even before red dice power creep there were not enough dice!! I bought 2 just for that (why buy a blister of dice when I can get more ships, too?).

Well it doesn't include other ship models and upgrade cards. As for dice packs well those are simply QoL improvements rather than necessary because even with the core missions people have been able to make a range-1 3-firepower attack with 3 red dice. The only thing you can really argue is debris clouds as those are the only core set tokens that are found in other expansions. But as far as tokens go for focus evade stress, target lock and maneuver templates and damage decks what more do you need for every game? Not every game has ion weapons, not every game has a ship with a cloaking action.

I'm still hoping for a TLT nerf

1 minute ago, Talamare said:

I'm still hoping for a TLT nerf

I'm down. I say make it cost 7 points, or make it require spending a target lock to shoot with it. Or both. Meanwhile, buff Blaster Turret.

4 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

I like the card combos, and I think they are a fun part of list building. OTOH, what I think is toxic is that a ship WITHOUT a card combo ain't worth poo-doo. Or, for that matter, a pilot without a special ability. This game needs to get back to a place where not only TIEs, but X-Wings, B-Wings, Z-95s, or anything else, can be flow unmodified and do well. It's been talked about before, but I really think a squadron mechanic is the solution--if I table several ships of the same type as a unit, they fly well together. Granted, that probably brings you back to a 1-card combo (the squadron card), but it isn't a party bus, either.

The cards should be for flavor and for adding choices, and for some necessary balancing. The meat and potatoes would be the ships and maneuvering, is basically what I'm trying to say. The fact is that as the game expands if they want to keep on creating such powerful cards, it's inevitable that you will get some unforseen combinations and the bigger the game gets the more all these cards will interact in unpredictable ways (especially the ones that are passive or unlimited in nature). They are going to have to be very active in nerfing those said cards when they result in the occasional card combo, an when i say card combo i usually mean an auto-take. Like the interaction behind zuckuss, overclocked on Dengar for instance, or deadeye on the contracted scout. These were all card combos that blew everything else out of the water.

That's a great idea about some cards that really enhance squadron mechanics, I've had a few similar ideas as well but hey, i'm not a game designer i just complain on the internet about it! I do enjoy Attani Mindlink and I think it's a great card that changes the whole nature of the way a squadron flies. It probably needs a little nerfing too but hey. They could make a few more cards that are designed to fill in all the EPT slots of a squadron, for example, or titles that give a limited EPT or ability to generics... but an EPT that is really about the way the squadron flies as a whole and interacts. Swarm leader is also not bad...it's a good start

33 minutes ago, Meade said:

The cards should be for flavor and for adding choices, and for some necessary balancing. The meat and potatoes would be the ships and maneuvering, is basically what I'm trying to say. The fact is that as the game expands if they want to keep on creating such powerful cards, it's inevitable that you will get some unforseen combinations and the bigger the game gets the more all these cards will interact in unpredictable ways (especially the ones that are passive or unlimited in nature). They are going to have to be very active in nerfing those said cards when they result in the occasional card combo, an when i say card combo i usually mean an auto-take. Like the interaction behind zuckuss, overclocked on Dengar for instance, or deadeye on the contracted scout. These were all card combos that blew everything else out of the water.

There's only so much you can do with the ship itself. Most of the mechanics have already been explored in all directions (dials, hull/shield, green/red dice combinations) to the point FFG feels the need to add 0 point titles (functionally part of the ship itself) to most ships in order to include additional ship rules to make the ships more unique.

In order to thrive, x-wing needs design space to grow into, and most of that design space lies with upgrade cards, as upgrade cards are 'free' (you can write anything you want on them, as long as the mechanics is balanced). As such, cards IMO will play an ever increasing role in X-wing. The era of naked generics has been gone for a while. Even TIE swarms have relied heavily on a card (crack shot) for the last year or so of their life.

Auto-take cards have been there for almost as long as the game itself. PtL is a wave 3 card IIRC and when was the last time you saw a Soontir without PtL? It's likely that some pilots are designed with their 'auto-take' cards already in mind.

FFG is a business. As such, they want to keep people buying and to that goal, a slight power creep (or at least mechanics creep) is beneficial.

54 minutes ago, mkevans80 said:

I'm down. I say make it cost 7 points, or make it require spending a target lock to shoot with it. Or both. Meanwhile, buff Blaster Turret.

Blaster Turret is perfect! Push them all towards it.

Autoblaster (Focus), Spend 1 Focus Token to perform this attack, blah blah, You may perform your primary weapon attack after this attack, Attack 1, Range 1
Dorsal Turret (Focus), Spend 1 Focus Token to perform this attack, Roll +1 attack if target is not in your primary firing arc, Attack 2, Range 1-2
Blaster Turret (Focus), Spend 1 Focus Token to perform this attack, Attack 3, Range 1-2
Ion Cannon Turret (Focus), Spend 1 Focus Token to perform this attack, blah blah, Attack 3 Range 1-2
TLT Attack (Focus), Spend 1 Focus Token to perform this attack twice, blah blah, Attack 3, Range 2-3

Using Turrets generally don't require that much skill. Give using Turrets a true penalty. Make them ALL require spending a Focus to use.

Blaster Turret starts looking a lot better with the rest brought down.

Also, I decided to try something with Autoblaster Turret. Give meaning to the word 'Auto' by allowing you to use your Primary Weapon after it, but nerfing it down to only 1 Attack Die. I think another more expensive/powerful auto turret could then be released without the ignoring defense dice effect.