My store hosted a tournament over the weekend, and I decided I would take a risk and run a "no-squad" imp build just to see if they can still work. I managed 2nd place. Here's the deal, this was my fleet:

Angles and spheres
Author: Darth Sanguis

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 383/400

Commander: Admiral Screed

Assault Objective: Station Assault
Defense Objective: Fleet Ambush
Navigation Objective: Minefields

[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
- Admiral Screed ( 26 points)
- Avenger ( 5 points)
- Captain Needa ( 2 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits ( 7 points)
- SW 7 Ion Batteries ( 5 points)
= 179 total ship cost

Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
- Chart Officer ( 2 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
- Overload Pulse ( 8 points)
= 150 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Repair Crews ( 4 points)
= 27 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Repair Crews ( 4 points)
= 27 total ship cost

So am I to interpret my decent standing that "large-ship low-fighter" builds can still be viable, even in a competitive environment? (Pic not from tournament but is exact build tested the day before)

Congrats on 2nd place!

Love the symmetry in the pic.

I think many lists can do well, depending on what lists they face in a tournament.

Some use the term "non-viable" to mean that a hard counter exists and you are gambling on not seeing it across the table during a tournament. This list might have trouble against an opponent with a massive bomber commitment (example: Reikeen Ace-Holes) or a well-built MSU (DeMSU). But there's no reason that it can't do well against some lists, as you demonstrated at the tourney.

Love seeing ISDs winning games!

It largely depends on the meta and player experience in your area. I would not rule out any list as not competitive. In our San Antonio regionals we had a double ISD list that I think scored in the upper half of a 28 player regional. It had a fighter escort however. A lot of it depends on matchups. When playing against newer players I find all that hull on ISDs to be very intimidating to them at first so they lose out on it's weaknesses and let them run roughshod over them.

Now if you are asking me if a dual ISD list will win Worlds or something, I wouldn't bet money on it. Anything is possible though. I am sure there will be one or two skilled enough players to bring it and do relatively well.

26 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

My store hosted a tournament over the weekend, and I decided I would take a risk and run a "no-squad" imp build just to see if they can still work. I managed 2nd place. Here's the deal, this was my fleet:

Angles and spheres
Author: Darth Sanguis

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 383/400

Commander: Admiral Screed

Assault Objective: Station Assault
Defense Objective: Fleet Ambush
Navigation Objective: Minefields

[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
- Admiral Screed ( 26 points)
- Avenger ( 5 points)
- Captain Needa ( 2 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits ( 7 points)
- SW 7 Ion Batteries ( 5 points)
= 179 total ship cost

Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
- Chart Officer ( 2 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
- Overload Pulse ( 8 points)
= 150 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Repair Crews ( 4 points)
= 27 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Repair Crews ( 4 points)
= 27 total ship cost

So am I to interpret my decent standing that "large-ship low-fighter" builds can still be viable, even in a competitive environment? (Pic not from tournament but is exact build tested the day before)

Btw be wary of minefields with strategic laying about. I really suggest if you are going to have minefields ensure you have strategic squadrons yourself otherwise your opponent is going to use your own objectives against you.

also as Democratis says a good bomber list with relay won't even give you a chance to use your ISD's on any meaningful target until it is to late.

9 minutes ago, Brikhause said:

Btw be wary of minefields with strategic laying about. I really suggest if you are going to have minefields ensure you have strategic squadrons yourself otherwise your opponent is going to use your own objectives against you.

also as Democratis says a good bomber list with relay won't even give you a chance to use your ISD's on any meaningful target until it is to late.

I really question this, bombers are mean, no doubt, but I still managed an 8-3 victory over a bomber-relay fleet by being hyper aggressive with the ISDs. Maybe if the players are imperial, I could see fighters being more useful because imperial ships at least have hull to back them, the fighter builds that I experienced toppled because of how fragile everything that made the squads decent was. I ran speed 3 right at the enemy, nav commands to make turns when I needed. Peltas, mc30s, nebs, cr90s, gr75s all never really had a chance, turn two they were flying right into blue range, and because of my low bid, and decent activation count, I managed a ton of successful PTs. Honestly I was more threatened by a very well built rebel fleet running an mc80 2 TRC cr90s and 2 gr75s with a small fighter screen. His deployment was perfect and put me at an immediate disadvantage, I couldn't get both my ISDs to line up a shot. I only ended up sinking a handful of small ships and had to play asset denial for 3 rounds.

2 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I really question this, bombers are mean, no doubt, but I still managed an 8-3 victory over a bomber-relay fleet by being hyper aggressive with the ISDs. Maybe if the players are imperial, I could see fighters being more useful because imperial ships at least have hull to back them, the fighter builds that I experienced toppled because of how fragile everything that made the squads decent was. I ran speed 3 right at the enemy, nav commands to make turns when I needed. Peltas, mc30s, nebs, cr90s, gr75s all never really had a chance, turn two they were flying right into blue range, and because of my low bid, and decent activation count, I managed a ton of successful PTs. Honestly I was more threatened by a very well built rebel fleet running an mc80 2 TRC cr90s and 2 gr75s with a small fighter screen. His deployment was perfect and put me at an immediate disadvantage, I couldn't get both my ISDs to line up a shot. I only ended up sinking a handful of small ships and had to play asset denial for 3 rounds.

Do you have Tabletop Simulator? It is just best that I show! If you are willing to download it I find it tons of fun, as the spatial orientation is much like playing Armada on the table. I am willing to show you how to use it if you are willing!?

43 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Peltas, mc30s, nebs, cr90s, gr75s all never really had a chance, turn two they were flying right into blue range, and because of my low bid, and decent activation count, I managed a ton of successful PTs.

Congrats on your success!

It sounds to me like your opponents weren't prepared for hyperaggressive ISD play and were caught on their heels. Which is good on you for recognising and exploiting that... Just recognize that it can be countered if your opponent prepares for that possibility at deployment and recognizes it happening. Which, a pair of ISD's charging at speed 3 on turn 1 kind of broadcasts it.

And don't be too overconfident in all that hull to protect you from bombers. Rebel or Imp, either one can generally force a large ship to come through the bomber cloud to get to the carriers. And I can't tell you how many hapless ISD's I've seen disintegrate to B-wings, H-6's, Rhymerballs... Keep in mind, if you're charging ahead at speed 3, a Rhymerball can usually start tearing into you on turn 1. 2 rounds is a loooong time to weather all those blacks one after another.

If you can find the points for even a pair of token TIEs, I think you would find them well worth the investment to help you survive that initial bomber attack to get their shots on the carriers.

Looks like the list is great, though: I'd be terrified coming up against two ISD2 Christmas Trees with a strong bid for first and a decent activation count. Just recognize what your weaknesses are so you can readjust to account for them.

7 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Just recognize that it can be countered if your opponent prepares for that possibility at deployment and recognizes it happening. Which, a pair of ISD's charging at speed 3 on turn 1 kind of broadcasts it.

Oh absolutely, for the players that knew me they were offset by the level of aggressiveness, my normal strategy is deploy speed 3, turn one take a nav token, turn two nav command plus token to drop to speed 1, forces enemy first contact at long range and allows me to get a successful PT as first contact.....

That's my alternate for a defensive game, but against fighters I may just risk the cloud to engage those ships that are activating the fighters at close range.

As someone who enjoyed my share of success with a hyperaggressive double-ISD fleet, I can offer several comments:

1. Bomber clouds can and will eat 1 ISD per two rounds. Its unusual to lose a fresh ISD in a single round (It happened to me only once and with a non-Motti ISD), so expect to get one attack from it and your optimal range but no more than that.

2. Expect to lose one of the ISDs most of the time and account for this in your list building (ISD upgrades cost, objectives)

3. With Relay the strategy to kill the carriers to weaken bomber cloud may not be achievable anymore, so the potential alternative may be to kill BCC flotillas instead.

4. I tried 4 ship squadronless 2ISD build before and found myself lacking extra activation and extra damage dealer. I'm glad that you made it work for you.

5. I tend not to start my ISDs at speed 3 and instead rely on navigation command first round as for hyperagressive play I usually want to get that extra yaw early rounds (This also somewhat mitigates deployment disadvantage, as with 4 or 5 deployments most of the time you don't know where the bulk of enemy fleet would be) and speed 2 gives more options to me round 1.

6. While double repair crew can remove two damage per round, I usually prefer to have at least one Comms Net flotilla in an ISD fleet to stock up tokens early.

2 minutes ago, pt106 said:

As someone who enjoyed my share of success with a hyperaggressive double-ISD fleet, I can offer several comments:

1. Bomber clouds can and will eat 1 ISD per two rounds. Its unusual to lose a fresh ISD in a single round (It happened to me only once and with a non-Motti ISD), so expect to get one attack from it and your optimal range but no more than that.

2. Expect to lose one of the ISDs most of the time and account for this in your list building (ISD upgrades cost, objectives)

3. With Relay the strategy to kill the carriers to weaken bomber cloud may not be achievable anymore, so the potential alternative may be to kill BCC flotillas instead.

4. I tried 4 ship squadronless 2ISD build before and found myself lacking extra activation and extra damage dealer. I'm glad that you made it work for you.

5. I tend not to start my ISDs at speed 3 and instead rely on navigation command first round as for hyperagressive play I usually want to get that extra yaw early rounds (This also somewhat mitigates deployment disadvantage, as with 4 or 5 deployments most of the time you don't know where the bulk of enemy fleet would be) and speed 2 gives more options to me round 1.

6. While double repair crew can remove two damage per round, I usually prefer to have at least one Comms Net flotilla in an ISD fleet to stock up tokens early.

all good pointers, I'll keep 'em in mind

Repair crews are tricky to use. I'm impressed you're pulling it off on a regular basis!

4 minutes ago, Democratus said:

Repair crews are tricky to use. I'm impressed you're pulling it off on a regular basis!

I've found that by practicing 3 or 4 formations, depending on offensive/defensive play style or objectives eliminates the difficulty involved with repair crews. Over the course of the tournament I must have removed 10 or 12 cards.

The formation I'm using in the picture can be both defensive and offensive, but so long as I maintain it, Gozantis are where they need to be, and I've limited the possible outcomes of engagement. It's a simple trick to help maintain a strategy. Too many people end up reactionary after first engagement.

11 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I really question this, bombers are mean, no doubt, but I still managed an 8-3 victory over a bomber-relay fleet by being hyper aggressive with the ISDs. Maybe if the players are imperial, I could see fighters being more useful because imperial ships at least have hull to back them, the fighter builds that I experienced toppled because of how fragile everything that made the squads decent was. I ran speed 3 right at the enemy, nav commands to make turns when I needed. Peltas, mc30s, nebs, cr90s, gr75s all never really had a chance, turn two they were flying right into blue range, and because of my low bid, and decent activation count, I managed a ton of successful PTs. Honestly I was more threatened by a very well built rebel fleet running an mc80 2 TRC cr90s and 2 gr75s with a small fighter screen. His deployment was perfect and put me at an immediate disadvantage, I couldn't get both my ISDs to line up a shot. I only ended up sinking a handful of small ships and had to play asset denial for 3 rounds.

Hey man, I was the Ackbar MC80 + 2xTRC90 + 2GR-75 list. Good game! I think the big key for me was being able to hold off deploying my fully-loaded MC80 and Jaina's Light until after your ISDs. I love being able to place that MC80 in such a way that I have a good sense of what it can kill over the course of the game while remaining alive. And I agree with the other commenter that Minefields is susceptible to strategic.. If you added a light squad cover to extent deployment, and then maybe chose to go first with those aggressive ISDs, I'd be in for a rough ride. I got destroyed in my next game against Vader Arqs with nasty squadrons that put me in a forced and tricky deployment situation. But it was something new to learn from. It really does depend a lot on the match-ups over the course of 3 rounds, just gotta play your game and hope for the best (and you got 2nd so that's a successful day).

Hope to play you again soon!

12 hours ago, Democratus said:

Repair crews are tricky to use. I'm impressed you're pulling it off on a regular basis!

I have two similar fleets I'm experimenting with, and early dismal results with Repair Crews (all timing requirements) means my fleets use Comms Net and Defense Liaisons instead, with CF in the whole stack after a turn or so. One is two moderately equipped ISDs (DL, GT, RBD, QLT, LS, and DTT) with three Gozantis, two Comms Net, the other Tua-ECM lifeboat; the other is two ISD-1s, again moderate upgrades, two Gozantis, and a fully decked out Impetuous (OE, FT, Kallus, Impetuous) to handle enemy squadrons. Neither has seen tournament action and both are still under review, but it's always good to hear other perspectives. Finding good objectives to fight with, especially with the arrival of strategic, has been somewhat vexing for me.

In that picture, the deployment of the rebels (who have a 7 vs 4 deployment advantage) is pretty bad. 2x slow ships side by side and facing directly forward, towards 2x ISDs (with gunnery teams no less), is just asking for carnage. I'd have have placed the flotilla 1st, then stalled out the rest of the Imperial deployments with squadrons, then stacked the remaining ships to one side.

11 minutes ago, Divad said:

In that picture, the deployment of the rebels (who have a 7 vs 4 deployment advantage) is pretty bad. 2x slow ships side by side and facing directly forward, towards 2x ISDs (with gunnery teams no less), is just asking for carnage. I'd have have placed the flotilla 1st, then stalled out the rest of the Imperial deployments with squadrons, then stacked the remaining ships to one side.

Exactly this!

Not not that's simply not enough. Better make it 3 just to be sure. (an ISD 2 and two ISD1 with Ozzel and some TIE Fighters.)

7 hours ago, Divad said:

In that picture, the deployment of the rebels (who have a 7 vs 4 deployment advantage) is pretty bad. 2x slow ships side by side and facing directly forward, towards 2x ISDs (with gunnery teams no less), is just asking for carnage. I'd have have placed the flotilla 1st, then stalled out the rest of the Imperial deployments with squadrons, then stacked the remaining ships to one side.

Oh no doubt, I got inside his head as soon as he saw the two ISDs. That particular player had been the victim of many pulse taps. I had planned for a delayed deployment but he plopped that mc80 down first, had he chosen to delay, I'd have switched to a different formation that angles both ISDs against one corner of my deploy zone. The one closest to the corner deploys at 3, the one to the right at speed 2. It gets them perpendicular to the deploy zones and allows me to play aggressively or defensively. It also limits the enemy escape routes should I choose to speed 3 charge 'em.

Which, addressing:

11 hours ago, connivingmole said:

Hey man, I was the Ackbar MC80 + 2xTRC90 + 2GR-75 list. Good game! I think the big key for me was being able to hold off deploying my fully-loaded MC80 and Jaina's Light until after your ISDs.

It was an excellent game! Your deployment was perfect. I realized as soon as I set my first ISD that I had made a mistake in not switching to the formation I mention above. I'd have had a good chance then. I had run the same formation 5 times in a row (by the time of our match) so I was way too over confident in its abilities. Should have stuck to my plan. lol I look forward to a rematch of course!

I like Supressor with Avenger. I think you could easily give up 4 points of bid for that.

In the instance of the pic you posted above, the flotilla on Avengers side would be suppressor, this way you have a source of token exhaustion on either flank of Avenger, and it helps to passively protect against speedy flankers such as Demo or MC30s.

28 minutes ago, Parkdaddy said:

I like Supressor with Avenger. I think you could easily give up 4 points of bid for that.

In the instance of the pic you posted above, the flotilla on Avengers side would be suppressor, this way you have a source of token exhaustion on either flank of Avenger, and it helps to passively protect against speedy flankers such as Demo or MC30s.

Several of my ISD fleets use suppressor, LOVE that title. The 4 points were important in this instance as the effectiveness of ISD fleet lowers quite a bit for each activation the opponent has over you. being 2nd player is important for this fleet. it does not do well as 1st lol

How many players, how many rounds?

15 minutes ago, Darthain said:

How many players, how many rounds?

there were 7 of us 3 rounds

Neat, sounds like a good little day. Yavaris - B wings would be something that one really needs to watch out for (I've tabled motti blast door double ISDS with that in the past). Just something to be weary of. Lost yavaris naturally, but that ship was born to die. That might be the single most frightening strike in the game for any large ship, really.

15 minutes ago, Darthain said:

Lost yavaris naturally, but that ship was born to die.

Idk, using Yavaris with the new relay shuttles is pretty survivable. Yavris+Nym+Adar Talon+ Luke+Biggs+bunch of xwings and a HWK spells trouble for sure. lol

X

19 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Idk, using Yavaris with the new relay shuttles is pretty survivable. Yavris+Nym+Adar Talon+ Luke+Biggs+bunch of xwings and a HWK spells trouble for sure. lol

X wings are more frightening to fighters than ships. Good generalists, but I'm not sure they are strip an ISD in a round bad. Maybe with some really lucky red die rolling.

Also yavaris relay is fine, but the fct positioning can't be done via relay and is important for slow squads.