31 minutes ago, Aetrion said:

Well, the Rebellion has the shipyards of Dac that manufacture entire battleships, and X-wings are manufactures specifically on their order, so it's not like they have no heavy industry backing their cause. Maybe if you're playing a campaign set before the battle of Yavin where you're just part of a small rebel cell that has to scrounge for everything in a heavily controlled sector the idea of not being able to come up with torpedoes makes sense, but if you're playing at the height of the galactic civil war where the rebels had entire shipyards it's kind of silly to say they can't make munitions.

Dont forget the 50,000c blaster pack though. The ability to manufacture a proton torpedo is nice, but then you got to get it across the galaxy through checkpoints and blockades to the hidden rebel base/fleet. That isn't so easy.

Well, they can stay off the major hyperspace lanes, and when you consider like an MC80 Liberty class star cruiser that has at least 36 fighters on board, it probably carries easily 1000 torpedoes just for its own figters, and has the space for tens of thousands more.

While not untrue, relegating a carrier-battleship+crew to replenishment duty isn't exactly an efficient use of forces.

2 hours ago, Aetrion said:

Well, they can stay off the major hyperspace lanes, and when you consider like an MC80 Liberty class star cruiser that has at least 36 fighters on board, it probably carries easily 1000 torpedoes just for its own figters, and has the space for tens of thousands more.

Are your players on an MC80?

2 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Are your players on an MC80?

That's hardly the point is it? You were questioning the ability of the Rebellion to procure proton torpedoes.

With Rogue One the extreme lack of ships and ordnance we saw in the battle of Yavin makes sense, now that we've seen that basically the entire Rebel fleet was destroyed at Scarif. Outside of that though, it's a military organization with access to heavy industry and major financial backers. The argument that they have no torpedoes available is just silly. It's like saying a military force that can produce aircraft carriers and fighter jets can't get missiles for them made.

On 13.3.2017 at 7:20 AM, Daeglan said:

Oh and missiles have not displaced guns... all modern fightercraft have guns. only the F-4 phantom dropped them and that was universally called a mistake.

I play simulations a lot, and I am really interested in learning real life procedures. I can tell you: if you are out of missiles, you are out of weapons. Mission over. The gun is nothing more than a very last life insurance. Exception: A-10. That thing was built around a gun. But the A-10 has its 2 sidewinders as some kind of a last life insurance. And to crack helis

4 hours ago, Aetrion said:

That's hardly the point is it? You were questioning the ability of the Rebellion to procure proton torpedoes.

With Rogue One the extreme lack of ships and ordnance we saw in the battle of Yavin makes sense, now that we've seen that basically the entire Rebel fleet was destroyed at Scarif. Outside of that though, it's a military organization with access to heavy industry and major financial backers. The argument that they have no torpedoes available is just silly. It's like saying a military force that can produce aircraft carriers and fighter jets can't get missiles for them made.

We aren't saying they can't get them. We are saying getting them to where they are wanted is not easy. And certainly they can't get as many as they want whenever they want. Watch shows like MASH where radar is playing the game of trading one item for another item to give to a third guy to get something to give to a 4th guy to get what he wants from a 5th guy. These are the kinds of problems our military had in Vietnam and Korea and WWII. And is very star wars. Logistics is not easy. Galaxy wide Logistics is super hard when you don't have reliable realtime information transfer. The reason we can do what we do with Fed Ex and the Military today is because we can transmit data nearly instantly. Which is why Logistics in star wars is going to still be like WWII and Korea and Vietnam. The Empire on the otherhand has a better logistics system because they have access to the Holonet. So they would have good logistics like we have today. But they are also prone to sabotage.

@MasterZelgadis This is because gun has a a limited ammo. In Star Wars Starfighters has a nearly unlimited ammo that has the easy ability to destroy another starfighter. So lasers are better in many ways than torpedoes. If you have unlimited missiles then yes they are better. But for the rebels they should not have unlimited access to torpedoes. because getting them where they need to be is not easy. They should be able to get them. Just not enough to be able to just use them willie nillie.

That and I feel players should use squadron rules in space combat, even perhaps taking control of alternative squad leaders if their PC's aren't involved to provide that "cut away to space combat motion" that the movies so love.

Someone mentioned the TIE Fighter computer game ...

There, most fighters could outfly torpedoes - even TIE bombers could dodge 'em. Admittedly they couldn't do much else while dodging the torpedo, but the option was there. Some of the top-end fighters such as the Advanced and Defender could even outrun them in a straight line. Perhaps ordnance should have a delay? Fire it this turn, and it hits next turn, giving the target a chance to try to evade or shoot down the incoming warhead.

That's how I play it. For me missiles and torps they cover 1 range band each turn. So if you have an incoming missile at short range, you have your turn to evade. To evade you just need to take advantage on this Sil 1 speed 5 or 6 "ship". Your gunners can try to shoot it if they dare to... sil 1

In TIE Fighter, you could fire warheads at other warheads. Not much use against missiles, and even with torpedoes, the slight speed difference usually meant the missile couldn't catch the torpedo before it hit, but it was a useful tactic against rockets and space bombs.

On 3/17/2017 at 10:50 PM, AndrewGPaul said:

Someone mentioned the TIE Fighter computer game ...

There, most fighters could outfly torpedoes - even TIE bombers could dodge 'em. Admittedly they couldn't do much else while dodging the torpedo, but the option was there. Some of the top-end fighters such as the Advanced and Defender could even outrun them in a straight line. Perhaps ordnance should have a delay? Fire it this turn, and it hits next turn, giving the target a chance to try to evade or shoot down the incoming warhead.

That depended entirely on the range and the speed of the launching craft though. As far as I remember, the speeds listed for the warheads in TIE Fighter are relative to the launching craft - they *add* the speed listed in the weapon selection screen to the speed you're at when firing them. So if you're in a TIE Defender pushing the limit with all power to the engines, your Heavy Bombs would be doing your own speed plus 10 MGLT, and the Advanced Concussion Missiles would be doing your speed plus 160 MGLT. You can shoot down A-Wings with heavy bombs if you get close enough to their six, because the bombs are always faster than you. It's a waste of ammo, but you can.

(there was a "trainer" for the DOS game, basically a live memory editor, that let you, among other things, use the "boost speed" that you got when entering hyperspace at will by tapping a key, and if you used your missiles, rockets or even bombs while sped up like that and then disengaged the boost, your missiles would streak away at 1000+ MGLT and become essentially guided laserbolts of doom, because nothing in the game could dodge them if aimed properly. )

Even an MC-80 needs to resupply sometimes.

A lot of missions from the old TIE Fighter and X-Wing DOS games revolve around ambushing capital ships during resupply. So I think it's reasonable to expect that after extended combat operations, Rebel forces may need to resupply.

Maybe there's a convenient resupply nearby. Maybe their supply freighter was ambushed by the Empire, or waylaid by pirates. Or maybe there's a Nergon-16 shortage in the sector and explosives cost a premium.

Sure, the Alliance can procure explosives. But probably not nearly as many as they'd like, and then probably only near their most vital strongholds like the HQ and the main fleet. One of the ideas emphasized in the AoR core book is that the Alliance makes do with what's available, which isn't always top of the line

Sry for being late to the party but as i'm playing X-Wing Alliance righ tnow...

Firing missiles and torps at an suspecting target smaller than a capital ship usually gets your missiles ripped apart by laser fire. Vice versa you can do the same with ease. Usually, missiles only kill small targets if they are occupied in any way or really slow.

So, if your players make a habit of spamming torps against fightercraft, let the fighters shoot at those missiles as incedental. Difficulties for engaging incoming missiles can be adapted for craft, situation , used warhead and so on.

There really is a reason not to fire bricks at flies

Also, use ECMs. Should not be hard for the Empire to equip their craft as needed.

Don't forget that if this a Rebellion game, the Rebellion will be PO'd at them for wasting torpedoes on fighters. They were usually short on supplies, and wouldn't waste the torps unless they needed to thin out numbers quick (i.e. 2 on patrol stumble over a wing of 12 bombers, yes fire your torps to thin out the herd, then go in with guns, but if 2 fighters stumble on 2 TIEs , no)

The problem is that the price of a torpedo is much less than repairing a single hit if you go with the "2000 credits per hull point" estimate from the book, so taking down enemies in the first round and not even risking retaliation makes financial sense.

3 hours ago, Aetrion said:

The problem is that the price of a torpedo is much less than repairing a single hit if you go with the "2000 credits per hull point" estimate from the book, so taking down enemies in the first round and not even risking retaliation makes financial sense.

I don't know what book you're reading from, but all three of my CRBs say repairs cost roughly 500 credits per hull point. Your financial argument is somewhat flawed.

3 hours ago, Aetrion said:

The problem is that the price of a torpedo is much less than repairing a single hit if you go with the "2000 credits per hull point" estimate from the book, so taking down enemies in the first round and not even risking retaliation makes financial sense.

yeah... um i only makes sense if they are easy to acquire. Which they really shouldn't be super easy to acquire in quantity... If you have trouble keeping your magazine full you will not be so quick to expend them. Also their price is the base starting point. The law of supply and demand will dictate adjustments to those prices. which there are rules for in the game based on location. I suggest rereading pages 162 to 165. make note of table 5-2 and 5-3. rarity 7 to begin in the outer rim rarity is 9 and x2 cost so that is 1500. if the world is also a frontier word that goes to x4 or 3000. and a rebel base is gonna likely also be on a uncivilized world. so rarity 15 and 3000 credits each. stop making them so easy to get. they are also restricted. so you need to use the black market to get them. This is why there is a quarter master specialization.

4 hours ago, Daeglan said:

yeah... um i only makes sense if they are easy to acquire. Which they really shouldn't be super easy to acquire in quantity... If you have trouble keeping your magazine full you will not be so quick to expend them. Also their price is the base starting point. The law of supply and demand will dictate adjustments to those prices. which there are rules for in the game based on location. I suggest rereading pages 162 to 165. make note of table 5-2 and 5-3. rarity 7 to begin in the outer rim rarity is 9 and x2 cost so that is 1500. if the world is also a frontier word that goes to x4 or 3000. and a rebel base is gonna likely also be on a uncivilized world. so rarity 15 and 3000 credits each. stop making them so easy to get. they are also restricted. so you need to use the black market to get them. This is why there is a quarter master specialization.

Technically the multipliers are for trade, not personal supply.

That said, Proton Torpedoes are 750c each and R. Can't find the rarity, but the launcher is 7, so lets assume that carries. On the outer rim (+2) that makes finding them a Daunting Streetwise check... So not easy to just dig up unless you're specced for it....

10 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:

Technically the multipliers are for trade, not personal supply.

That said, Proton Torpedoes are 750c each and R. Can't find the rarity, but the launcher is 7, so lets assume that carries. On the outer rim (+2) that makes finding them a Daunting Streetwise check... So not easy to just dig up unless you're specced for it....

And if you are part of the Rebellion that means you are likely on a frontier world which ups the rarity to 11 and an uncivilized world puts it to 13...

7 hours ago, Oden Gebhac said:

I don't know what book you're reading from, but all three of my CRBs say repairs cost roughly 500 credits per hull point. Your financial argument is somewhat flawed.

Hm, guess I remembered those numbers wrong. Still, I think it's 750 per torpedo, that does make them pretty **** cheap. Cheaper than a thermal detonator, and still cheaper than 2 points of hull damage.

I think the notion that they are super hard to find also really heavily depends on how hard the GM is trying to make things rare. If people are able to just straight up roll on rarity it's pretty easy to find stuff usually. If you're running an adventure that's actually based around the logistics of a rebel cell where every single item has to be sourced with utmost care that makes sense, but then in an adventure like that you should also really need every single item you acquire that way.

Then the GM should just say "You find a supplier, who seems a bit shadier than you'd like, that is known is to have some. However, he/she tells you that there are none available and it will take some time to acquire more." A roll doesn't have to produce an immediate effect. If the players balk at that, they can be reminded that they are a Rebel cell far from a resupply point and must acquire their equipment and materiel on their own.

10 hours ago, Aetrion said:

Hm, guess I remembered those numbers wrong. Still, I think it's 750 per torpedo, that does make them pretty **** cheap. Cheaper than a thermal detonator, and still cheaper than 2 points of hull damage.

I think the notion that they are super hard to find also really heavily depends on how hard the GM is trying to make things rare. If people are able to just straight up roll on rarity it's pretty easy to find stuff usually. If you're running an adventure that's actually based around the logistics of a rebel cell where every single item has to be sourced with utmost care that makes sense, but then in an adventure like that you should also really need every single item you acquire that way.

The games rules as written has them pretty hard to acquire. And don't forget to up the price as I noted in table 5-3. So usually on the outer rim the price should be 1500 not 750. 750 is he starting point.

I just ultimately don't believe in trying to balance everything through narrative means. Sometimes you're simply going to be playing a game where proton torpedoes aren't in short supply. Realistically the reason torpedoes aren't used against fighters is simply that they aren't agile enough, not that every single fighter that has them suffers from constant supply shortages.

I mean why doesn't the Empire use them all the time? After all they treat 50,000 credit TIE Fighters as a disposable fighter defense, so why not torpedoes?

That is what the gunnery check is about. We have given you many many many ways of dealing with them. The reality is in war ordinance is not always readily available. Star Wars is based off of WWII where ordinance was not readily available. While yes the US was a manufacturing powerhouse getting stuff from the US to Europe was incredibly difficult. I get you don't like it. But that is the way the game is set up.

Also I gave you a raw reason for doubling or even quadrupling the price. That is not narrative that is a core mechanic for handling the economy. Why you are turning your nose up to a valid reason to make a proton torpedo that you are complaining is cheap more expensive I do not understand. You do realize in this game the prices listed are not necessarily the price you pay per the rules? This is a mechanical thing. Not narrative.