18 minutes ago, mkevans80 said:

To respond to Sabine, I feel like the Stresshog is b.s. too. I dislike all of the stuff that allows virtually unlimited stress to pile up (such as Dengaroo, good riddance). It feels like it's exploiting loopholes in the mechanics of the game. That much stress on a ship or pilot should cause that ship or pilot to explode into a fine red mist.

Fair. And to be honest, I do also agree that Kylo can be a NPE. I would rather face virtually everything that was just nerfed (including Dengaroo) than Kylo and the Stresshog.

I don't want to sound like I'm saying you shouldn't have problems with the game or vent about them. Airing grievances can be a good way to let off steam. After that, you can approach how to limit the NPE's effect on you as you see fit.

3 minutes ago, boomaster said:

Maybe I've missed something with RAC and Keyan as they aren't pilots I fly. But Chirpy lets you flip a focus to a crit (at 1 - 2), it's not auto bypassing shields. If Keyan died with 4 shields left.... were you taking the crits direct from Kylo's ability? And if you were... why weren't you cancelling at least the first one with a shield?

Kylo triggers on any uncancelled crit result (uncancelled by evade dice, that is) so goes through shields. Hence Keyan needed 3 turns to die.

Should combo it further with more Shield ignoring cards like Advanced Homing Missile and Proton Bombs.

Maybe we can get FF to change Vader crew to deal a Faceup card instead of the current Crit effect

I see both sides of the argument. No one likes feeling punished for playing the game.

But just because you don't like something doesn't make it an NPE. I've seen a lot of people call Zuckess (pre-nerf) an NPE, but I've also seen a lot of people defend him.

As a Dash player, I've played both sides of the NPE game. Some people really hate playing against what is essentially a PWT, which they see as an NPE (although he has a bit more counterplay than most.) I run Expertise on Dash, so there are two low-cost cards I hate seeing on the other side of the table: Autothrusters and Rebel Captive; they both shut down aspects of my list but hard.

But that doesn't make those cards an NPE, they just counter my list hard.

Kylo, on the other hand... I'm not sure yet. The thing that makes me feel inclined to call him an NPE has more to do with condition cards as a whole. I feel they seem to detract from the whole vision of the game as a game of tactics, strategy, planning, and movement in a way that focuses on the pilots. Conditions seems to remove some of that agency.

That, and guaranteeing Blinded Pilot two turns in a row.

92 points Pilots ------

Major Rhymer (36) TIE Bomber (26), Extra Munitions (2), Advanced Homing Missiles (3), Proton Bombs (5), Guidance Chips (0)

Rear Admiral Chiraneau (56) VT-49 Decimator (46), Rebel Captive (3), Kylo Ren (3), Engine Upgrade (4)

If they got rid of Blinded Pilot, that would go a long way to making Kylo bearable. The other issue is definitely ships with high shields and low hull... namely E-Wings and B-Wings. Outside of Corran, these guys don't see much play anyway, so it sucks that they're even more vulnerable.

1 minute ago, StriderZessei said:

But just because you don't like something doesn't make it an NPE.

NPE stands for negative player experience. If I don't like something, that is the VERY DEFINITION of NPE. Yes, it's a pretty subjective thing. Some cards will be NPE for more people, some may only bother a vocal few. Kylo is new enough that we haven't seen what the general consensus will be yet. I'm curious to see how that plays out.

And yes, you have people defending some of the cards (like Zuckuss), but you could have Kylo's card read "If you deal a critical damage to a ship with this condition, you win the game immediately " and I can guarantee you there would be SOMEBODY out there defending the card as being perfectly fine.

At least Blinded Pilot has been changed since its first iteration. It used to be that if you didn't have a shot, you couldn't flip it face down. Now you can flip it during the combat phase whether you've got something in arc or not.

13 minutes ago, mkevans80 said:

And yes, you have people defending some of the cards (like Zuckuss), but you could have Kylo's card read "If you deal a critical damage to a ship with this condition, you win the game immediately " and I can guarantee you there would be SOMEBODY out there defending the card as being perfectly fine.

Just fly better...

31 minutes ago, ThalanirIII said:

Kylo triggers on any uncancelled crit result (uncancelled by evade dice, that is) so goes through shields. Hence Keyan needed 3 turns to die.

I must be misinterpreting "suffers" then. I have always taken "suffers" as after shields cancel dice on a hit, after tokens (or compare dice as it is nowadays.)

Threads like this just encourages me to use the card more. Thanks!

I have yet to face kylo crew. Have faced his Shuttle once but ISYTDS didn't come up.

But I am in extreme fear of it as my main list is very strong offensively but low on agility. So kylo will easily hit my ships barring crazy luck which means two rounds of one of my ships not shooting which almost guarantees me a loss.

2 hours ago, Hawkstrike said:

Or bring Boba Fett, and pitch Kylo out the airlock.

Unless he's the pilot....

In honour of this thread, I may try this out. Suggestions are encouraged.

RAC uses AStS on whatever the ship that potentially poses the biggest threat is. At R3, action Kylo for ISYTDS against said threat ship. Future turns, action Hux for Fanatical Devotion on the RAC (since it doesn't typically have any defense roll anyways). Use the Focus token from Hux to convert <focus> to <BOOM>, and RAC to change one <focus> to <KABOOM>. Use Merc Copilot as needed to upscale to another crit. Colzet gets in and just annoying card-flipping with his FCS/TL. Scarif just is equally annoying flying around shooting at things.

Rear Admiral Chiraneau (46)
A Score to Settle (0)
Mercenary Copilot (2)
General Hux (5)
Kylo Ren (3)

Lieutenant Colzet (23)
Fire-Control System (0)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
TIE/x1 (0)

Scarif Defender (18)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
Adaptive Ailerons (0)

Total: 99

View in Yet Another Squad Builder


Edit: Drop Scarif Defender and replace with this to follow RAC around and give it a free TL every turn.
Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)
Inspiring Recruit (1)
Systems Officer (2)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
TIE Shuttle (0)

1 hour ago, Budgernaut said:

At least Blinded Pilot has been changed since its first iteration. It used to be that if you didn't have a shot, you couldn't flip it face down. Now you can flip it during the combat phase whether you've got something in arc or not.

Though, with the old one you could trigger Gunner effects. The new one you can't.

1 hour ago, StriderZessei said:

I run Expertise on Dash, so there are two low-cost cards I hate seeing on the other side of the table: Autothrusters and Rebel Captive; they both shut down aspects of my list but hard. But that doesn't make those cards an NPE, they just counter my list hard.

Kylo, on the other hand... I'm not sure yet. The thing that makes me feel inclined to call him an NPE has more to do with condition cards as a whole. I feel they seem to detract from the whole vision of the game as a game of tactics, strategy, planning, and movement in a way that focuses on the pilots. Conditions seems to remove some of that agency.

Great examples.

i think FFG had used some of the design space early on, and it grew most in the Rebel arena then flourished extensively in the Scum builds, so now a grand example in the Imps camp. There are hard counters to him, Determination as an obvious example. Perhaps the X7 nerf is an attempt to get stress-hogs back a bit, in order to slow-down mindlink some. There may be a master plan?

As usual many people miss the point of these threads by suggesting counters to the NPE card.

Kylo is easily hard-countered by determination, but that doesnt solve the issue that the card isnt fun to play against unless you bring a specific counter.

I dont rate Kylo as tier 1 competetive, but he's annoying to deal with.

24 minutes ago, Celez said:

As usual many people miss the point of these threads by suggesting counters to the NPE card.

Kylo is easily hard-countered by determination, but that doesnt solve the issue that the card isnt fun to play against unless you bring a specific counter.

I dont rate Kylo as tier 1 competetive, but he's annoying to deal with.

That's because when most people here hear of a problem, they consider it a challenge to be overcome.

If someone doesn't want advice, and just to vent/rant/etc., that's fine too, but ultimately there isn't much to discuss and it doesn't bring much to the table. I understand if someone just wants to commiserate, but most people are just going to recommend you pull out the nail.

1 hour ago, Slugrage said:

Threads like this just encourages me to use the card more. Thanks!

Says a lot about you if you get off on frustrating other people. Nice.

I designed a similar list that uses Colzet, and mine is better. Your list gets shut down immediately by bumping, and doesn't work as well against high-PS (9) aces like Fenn/Vader/Soontir/Poe. My list uses RAC w/Vi, systems officer, gunner, Kylo. Dauntless guarantees you get the action to use Kylo, Gunner helps ensure you hit, Systems officer clears the stress you got from Dauntless while giving a TL to Colzet (so he can evade or barrel roll). My third ship is Scourge w/Crack Shot, who synergizes well with the crits that bypass shields.

4 minutes ago, kris40k said:

That's because when most people here hear of a problem, they consider it a challenge to be overcome.

If someone doesn't want advice, and just to vent/rant/etc., that's fine too, but ultimately there isn't much to discuss and it doesn't bring much to the table. I understand if someone just wants to commiserate, but most people are just going to recommend you pull out the nail.

Yup! If you want to moan about something you don't like on the official forums, expect to hear from those of us who want to keep it constructive. That's the cost of having (and voicing) an opinion, I guess.

Remember, if you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem!

Who says bitching isn't constructive? Worked for Palp/Zuckuss/Manaroo/X-7, no?

7 minutes ago, mkevans80 said:

Says a lot about you if you get off on frustrating other people. Nice.

I designed a similar list that uses Colzet, and mine is better. Your list gets shut down immediately by bumping, and doesn't work as well against high-PS (9) aces like Fenn/Vader/Soontir/Poe. My list uses RAC w/Vi, systems officer, gunner, Kylo. Dauntless guarantees you get the action to use Kylo, Gunner helps ensure you hit, Systems officer clears the stress you got from Dauntless while giving a TL to Colzet (so he can evade or barrel roll). My third ship is Scourge w/Crack Shot, who synergizes well with the crits that bypass shields.

I hardly "get off" on it. We just find it amusing in our FLGS to bring lists to the table that are challenging and non-meta, and yes annoying so we can find ways to break it. But if you want to see it as some form of sexual self-gratification, that speaks more to you than it does to me.

I also failed to realize this was some kind of competition as to who is "better". Again, this speaks far more about yourself than it does anyone else.

1 minute ago, mkevans80 said:

Who says bitching isn't constructive? Worked for Palp/Zuckuss/Manaroo/X-7, no?

There's a difference between "X is too powerful and here's why,"

vs.

"WAAAA I DON'T LIKE THIS CARD NPE BUZZWORD FFG NERF PLOX RIP DEDGAEM"

Not saying that's what is going on here, though.

38 minutes ago, Celez said:

As usual many people miss the point of these threads by suggesting counters to the NPE card.

Kylo is easily hard-countered by determination, but that doesnt solve the issue that the card isnt fun to play against unless you bring a specific counter.

I dont rate Kylo as tier 1 competetive, but he's annoying to deal with.

I think you have the real idea. I love triple rebel aces yet, and I have always found swarms a hard list to face. I don't like flying against them as much because it is much harder to win. Even so, I could do some serious damage, and with a little luck, and serious flying, pull out a win. Kylo just seems to spit in the face of that though. It seems like he's very difficult to outfly and outshoot (I haven't faced him yet). Blinded pilot, pypassing shields is just devastating. You are losing a gun for a turn minimum, which can often make all the difference in the world, and taking hull damage almost for free... this is a bit more serious than losing actions or forced to go 1 forward

2 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

There's a difference between "X is too powerful and here's why,"

vs.

"WAAAA I DON'T LIKE THIS CARD NPE BUZZWORD FFG NERF PLOX RIP DEDGAEM"

Not saying that's what is going on here, though.

You mean that there's loads of statistical tournament data and direct observation from FFG at local/regional/national/words level tournaments that FFG could review instead of digging through a mountain of troll droppings that are the forums? Weird. It's like they analyze data or something.

3 minutes ago, Slugrage said:

You mean that there's loads of statistical tournament data and direct observation from FFG at local/regional/national/words level tournaments that FFG could review instead of digging through a mountain of troll droppings that are the forums? Weird. It's like they analyze data or something.

They will still look through the forums, qualitative data and all that, but that by its nature is to be taken with a huge grain of salt and I expect FFG to know that and to know how to handle it accordingly.