1 hour ago, Kumagoro said:

Everybody is saying that Kylo "shuts down a ship's attack 2 turns in a row". So I must be the only one who rolls zero eyeballs with RAC and zero crits with his escort, like, 3 turns in a row. Then I do, and they just evade all. The reliability of Kylo's ability is seriously overrated.

That's why you pair him with Vader (pilot) and Palpatine. Problem solved .

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I also dislike Kylo but not because of his ability or the way it works (which sure is annoying) but because it slows the game down a load. This for me is the big problem with it as your opponent has to dig through the deck for cards.

Perhaps on the pilot Kylo it is a problem (havent's seen him used much though). Using Kylo as crew on the other hand only makes sense in 3 situations:

1. You need to blind the enemy to decrease the amount of damage coming your way this turn. This happens twice per game and you won't spend more than a minute tops on doing that.

2. You try to reduce an enemy ace to PS0 to outmaneuver him. This is used relatively rarely because Kylo lists are typically high PS (and need to be, since Kylo loses a lot of efficiency if you can't blind the enemy before he shoots).

3. You ran out of Blinded Pilots but are facing 2 hp aces or a mid-hp regenerator (such as Poe), so you use Kylo for the sake of pushing damage past shields. It's unlikely you'll face more than one such ship however and you'll probably spend at least one Blinded Pilot on it anyway.

In other words, Kylo will be typically used 2, maybe 3 times a game. Even if it took a full minute every time to find the card you're looking for (it doesn't), it's still hardly a tragedy.

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Maybe I missed something from the OP, but how are you pushing the damage past the shields?

ISYTDS triggers when the affected ship suffers critical damage. Critical damage is suffered every time a ship does not defend vs a die with a crit symbol. We're used to thinking that critical damage is only applied when shields are down because pre-Kylo as long as shields were up, the result of normal and critical damage was exactly the same (one shield was lost). However, per game rules the ship still suffered critical damage regardless of whether or not it had shields. And with Kylo it does make a lot of difference because ISYTDS replaces the normal effect of suffering critical damage (such as losing a shield) with assigning the chosen card to the affected ship, bypassing the shields in the process.

23 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

ISYTDS triggers when the affected ship suffers critical damage. Critical damage is suffered every time a ship does not defend vs a die with a crit symbol. We're used to thinking that critical damage is only applied when shields are down because pre-Kylo as long as shields were up, the result of normal and critical damage was exactly the same (one shield was lost). However, per game rules the ship still suffered critical damage regardless of whether or not it had shields. And with Kylo it does make a lot of difference because ISYTDS replaces the normal effect of suffering critical damage (such as losing a shield) with assigning the chosen card to the affected ship, bypassing the shields in the process.

That's terrible. Especially for ships like the B-wing.

2 minutes ago, Clancampbell said:

That's terrible. Especially for ships like the B-wing.

Which is why you fly another ship with Draw Their Fire alongside them.

3 minutes ago, Lampyridae said:

Which is why you fly another ship with Draw Their Fire alongside them.

Yeah, or take determination. Sure there are counters, doesn't make it any less terrible.

I'm working toward a 4 or 5 ship list for tournaments because RAC-Kylo is definitely present in my area. A three ship list maybe, but not the 2 aces + a support archetype that has been prevalent since Palp and then Manaroo came onto the scene.

I did have an NPE with RAC-Kylo but that was because we mis-interpreted the rules. He had Kylo-Gunner-Vader and we thought Kylo interacted with Vader. That wasn't even a game.

2 hours ago, Kumagoro said:

Everybody is saying that Kylo "shuts down a ship's attack 2 turns in a row". So I must be the only one who rolls zero eyeballs with RAC and zero crits with his escort, like, 3 turns in a row. Then I do, and they just evade all. The reliability of Kylo's ability is seriously overrated.

That's why I would pair Kylo crew with Gunner and make sure RAC has predator. And HSCP.

Just now, StriderZessei said:

That's why I would pair Kylo crew with Gunner and make sure RAC has predator. And HSCP.

Pretty much the optimal Kylo crew build I think is RAC/Pred/HotCoP/Gunner/Kylo/Engine and some form of Vader pilot. Or just maybe Colzet with FCS and another low-cost ship, maybe Wampa.

Do the players who think Kylo is an NPE find him less annoying when he is in a ship without a turret? Is the problem less significant with Kylo pilot?

One of the reasons I considered 5-ship Rebel builds was the threat of being dropped on a rock by a Tractor Beam. That has exactly the same effect, without the damage going in under shields.

36 minutes ago, Clancampbell said:

That's terrible. Especially for ships like the B-wing.

Actually vs a B-wing it doesn't matter so much. With only 1 green he's not that hard to hit. Assuming you get 3 hits per attack (pretty standard these days), B-wing will take roughly 3, maybe 4 attacks to take out. With Kylo you're all but guaranteed to take it out in 3 attacks but these will need to be spread across 3 rounds (can only apply Kylo once per round). IMO you're better off just taking the target lock and nuking the B-wing into oblivion with everything you've got.

Now, an E-wing, A-wing or another high-agi low-hp ship - that's another story and Kylo certainly shines against them.

1 minute ago, Verlaine said:

Do the players who think Kylo is an NPE find him less annoying when he is in a ship without a turret? Is the problem less significant with Kylo pilot?

This is what I think personally. I don't really have much of any issue with the ability unless it is on RAC. Just another pitfall of the awful primary weapon turret.

4 minutes ago, Verlaine said:

Do the players who think Kylo is an NPE find him less annoying when he is in a ship without a turret? Is the problem less significant with Kylo pilot?

IME running Kylo pilot the problem is a LOT less pronounced with him, not because of the lack of a turret, but because of his middling PS and the opponent's ability to control when he gets the condition. They're usually able to give it to a mediocre ship, or a ship which isn't getting shot at this round (though in that instance, the not getting shot could be because he's not a turret). It's also a lot more possible to focus him to death and only be affected by the condition once.

He's also often the lowest PS ship in your list, so you don't get a chance to pop the condition until the following round at which point the ship holding it can get out of range and/or tank up as far as possible.

45 minutes ago, Verlaine said:

Do the players who think Kylo is an NPE find him less annoying when he is in a ship without a turret? Is the problem less significant with Kylo pilot?

Not really. His effect triggers if you hit him (pilot version) which is just as bad as Rebel Captive.

Punish me for playing the game, great.*

But with the crew version (typically in RAC) he has higher PS, and all sorts of ways to push a crit through and less counterplay. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

*EDIT: Not calling Rebel Captive an NPE. Just that it's frustrating to play against, similar to Kylo, and sometimes, all you can do is grit your teeth and bear it.

5 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

Not really. His effect triggers if you hit him (pilot version) which is just as bad as Rebel Captive. Punish me for playing the game, great.

Rebel Captive and Kylo both aren't about punishing you for playing the game, they're about affecting your tactical decision making by messing with your target priority.

Otherwise you may as well call any control element 'punishing you for playing the game'.

11 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

IME running Kylo pilot the problem is a LOT less pronounced with him, not because of the lack of a turret, but because of his middling PS and the opponent's ability to control when he gets the condition. They're usually able to give it to a mediocre ship, or a ship which isn't getting shot at this round. It's also a lot more possible to focus him to death and only be affected by the condition once.

The Kylo Ren pilot ability does allow a lot more counter play than the crew does. There's not much that you can do to prevent the Kylo Ran crew from assigning the condition in the first combat round when it's sitting on a PS 10 ship. The pilot version puts you in control of when the condition comes into play and isn't likely to take a key ship out of the exchange in what is often one of the most important combat rounds of the game.

4 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Otherwise you may as well call any control element 'punishing you for playing the game'.

Some people think this way though. They consider any sort of control element to be punishing and a NPE. Which is once again why the term has no real meaning. It's so very, very subjective that it's not a useful term other than to make yourself seem to have a stronger argument then you really do by using a buzzword.

The fact that some people find using control elements quite enjoyable IMO completely destroys the concept that they're a NPE, assuming there's some way around them.

37 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Rebel Captive and Kylo both aren't about punishing you for playing the game, they're about affecting your tactical decision making by messing with your target priority.

Otherwise you may as well call any control element 'punishing you for playing the game'.

Right. I just dislike the fact that there is really no way around it. In a game where you win by shooting your enemy's ships, getting stressed (or "punished") for shooting your enemies just feels cheap.

As I've said earlier, it also doesn't help that it's a hard counter to my 2-ship list.

"Welp, looks like Miranda's getting stressed again!"

Not saying it's an NPE though.

2 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

Right. I just dislike the fact that there is really no way around it. In a game where you win by shooting your enemy's ships, getting stressed (or "punished") for shooting your enemies just feels cheap.

As I've said earlier, it also doesn't help that it's a hard counter to my 2-ship list.

"Welp, looks like Miranda's getting stressed again!"

Shoot another ship.

If the rebel captive is the last thing alive, then yeah, you don't have much choice. I mean, playing Mira, you do. You bomb it. Or you shoot it and regen and still do a bunch of damage.

People who play K Wings, doubly so Miranda, have no business grumbling about negative play experiences

In brazilian portuguese we dont say "NPE", we call It "Mimimi".

It translate close to "minimal personal enjoyment", a contraction of "miodeus miajude minjusto"

I believe that this is a case of mimimi, indeed.

36 minutes ago, VanorDM said:

The fact that some people find using control elements quite enjoyable IMO completely destroys the concept that they're a NPE, assuming there's some way around them.

Since when does something have to be an NPE for everyone?

There are some gamers who like playing Fluxx. But, in my experience, the vast majority of gamers hate playing Fluxx because the pure luck-fest of winning or losing isn't a valuable or interesting use of their time. So the vast majority of gamers do not purchase and will not touch a game of Fluxx.

So, if X-Wing starts to become defined by cards that 75% of the community find to make for negative games, sure that still means a quarter of the community likes those game elements and doesn't find them to be NPE. But it doesn't mean those 75% of players won't start walking away from the game because somebody else still finds it fun....

7 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Since when does something have to be an NPE for everyone?

Because that's what the term really means. Is that most any and every time that effect is involved, it's a negative for pretty much everyone.

Otherwise a NPE is simply something someone doesn't like and at that point the phrase is meaningless, because it's nothing more than an opinion. We could call anything a NPE at that point. Green dice? A NPE. PWT? A NPE. PtL on a ship like a Tie Interceptor? A NPE. Autothrusters used against someone who likes flying a PWT? A NPE.

Either the term actually means something, or else it's just a buzzword without meaning and should be treated as such.

If we're going to treat a NPE as simply "I don't like this because it's not fun to play against" and something that needs to be fixed somehow, than we might as well write off 90% of the game here and now and go back to X-Wings and Y-Wings with Ion's vs Tie Swarms... Expect that the Tie Swarm was considered a NPE back in wave 1...

That said, there is a point where something is truly a net negative on the game as a whole, and FFG will after having enough proof do something about it, as the latest FAQ proves. But the mear fact that someone doesn't like something doesn't mean it is inherently bad.

2 minutes ago, VanorDM said:

Because that's what the term really means. Is that most any and every time that effect is involved, it's a negative for pretty much everyone.

Otherwise a NPE is simply something someone doesn't like and at that point the phrase is meaningless, because it's nothing more than an opinion. We could call anything a NPE at that point. Green dice? A NPE. PWT? A NPE. PtL on a ship like a Tie Interceptor? A NPE. Autothrusters used against someone who likes flying a PWT? A NPE.

Either the term actually means something, or else it's just a buzzword without meaning and should be treated as such.

If we're going to treat a NPE as simply "I don't like this because it's not fun to play against" and something that needs to be fixed somehow, than we might as well write off 90% of the game here and now and go back to X-Wings and Y-Wings with Ion's vs Tie Swarms... Expect that the Tie Swarm was considered a NPE back in wave 1...

I've been involved in gaming communities for over two decades, and I've never ever seen anyone use NPE as narrowly or inflexibly as you have in mind.

7 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

and I've never ever seen anyone use NPE as narrowly or inflexibly as you have in mind.

The term itself is fairly recent, I've never seen it used until the last 6 or so months here.

But regardless of how or how long it's been used elsewhere, around here the only way it's used is to make someone's opinion seem to carry more weight by using a buzzword.

If you don't like how I think the term should be used, then that's your issue, because as far as I'm concerned it be reserved to mean something that lot of people don't like and not thrown around to describe every single upgrade someone doesn't like because it is a counter to how they like to play.

That said Kylo may very well end up being such a thing like the Emperor was, but that doesn't mean every control power in the game is a NPE, which is what some people seem to believe. Which was what I was really talking about, control elements in general not just Kylo himself.

2 minutes ago, VanorDM said:

The term itself is fairly recent, I've never seen it used until the last 6 or so months here.

But regardless of how or how long it's been used elsewhere, around here the only way it's used is to make someone's opinion seem to carry more weight by using a buzzword.

If you don't like how I think the term should be used, then that's your issue, because as far as I'm concerned it be reserved to mean something that lot of people don't like and not thrown around to describe every single upgrade someone doesn't like because it is a counter to how they like to play.

That said Kylo may very well end up being such a thing like the Emperor was, but that doesn't mean every control power in the game is a NPE, which is what some people seem to believe.

I've seen it used in much earlier contexts, especially when helping with development/testing of older and now defunct CCGs.

Well wait, hold the phone....now you're not even using the term consistently.

Does NPE mean (1) "that everyone or almost everyone finds negative" or does it mean (2) "something that a lot of people don't like." Because these are very different claims, yet at first you endorsed (1), which I challenged it by offering the alternative (2) as the standard concept. But now here in this post you seem to be backing off of (1) and explicitly endorsing (2) (you say "something a lot of people don't like"). So I think it's pretty clear you're not actually too clear yourself on what you think the term means, which is odd given your posts about how the term should and should not be used.

Either way, we both agree that NPE shouldn't apply to each and every single unique subjective dislike of something. Also, in a living game like X-Wing (or a CCG), NPE usually excludes people's distaste for the basic core game mechanics (e.g. green dice). You sort of assume at some point that those things are essential elements of the game and that your playerbase (or target future audience) accepts them as part of the landscape. Then, you ask if NEW additions to the game present as NPE or not. Because for someone at this point in Wave 10 to ***** that green dice are NPE is profoundly dumb, because obviously green dice are an essential characteristic of the game and have been since release--certainly not everyone has to like the red vs green dice mechanic to combat, but someone who really doesn't like that style of combat resolution (e.g. FGD) really ought to be playing a different game with different core mechanics, then. Now, someone in Wave 8 saying that Torp Scouts is NPE is pretty legitimate, because never in the games 7 Wave History had a list that so easily generated such reliable spike damage on an alpha strike, and a large number of ships and archetypes were incapable of responding to or counter-playing that sort of spike damage.

8 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I've been involved in gaming communities for over two decades, and I've never ever seen anyone use NPE as narrowly or inflexibly as you have in mind.

I've also been involved in gaming communities for two decades, and I've never seen anyone apply NPE as broadly as you've been. I mean, seriously, "if X-Wing starts to become defined by cards that 75% of the community find to make for negative games?" That's a BS statistic and we all know it.

I've been on both the dealing and receiving end of Kylo. He's a painful, punishing card, but he also requires you to actually hit them with a critical hit result on the attack.

The pilot version is easy to mitigate: have multiple ships with the same pilot skill and ping-pong the card around to whomever is least threatened by it. If you have a two-ship list with different pilot skills, then he's a hard counter, but the Decivader was also a hard counter for Interceptors and nobody blasted that as being a "NPE."

The crew version is tougher as his user can control the target, but he's 3 points, requires an action to use, and still requires you to hit. Stress control and bumping can prevent them from getting the action, and high defense can keep the crit from landing. A mindlinked Fenn/Teroch/Zuckuss list just handed my Kyloicunn list his lunch last night because my opponent put me in an early hole where I couldn't use Kylo for my action until his ship was about to die.