Played a game against my friend yesterday. He had Kylo crew on RAC (VI) with Scourge and a Tie Striker generic . I had Nien, Keyn, and Cassian in a list I call "Anger Management" that focuses on shedding large amounts of stress from Rage (inspired by one of Thrawn's youtube battle reps... great stuff). I won the match with one ship remaining, with only 1 hit point left on Nien. He managed to kill the enemy Striker by getting behind him. He was able to slow-roll and force the Striker to fly past him, so he could get a shot off for the win. Strikers are crazy... difficult to fly, very unpredictable to fly against, but super fun. Even if they don't turn out to be tournament-worthy ships, I foresee lots of fun games in my future with those ships.

There were a lot of fun things about the game. The highlight for me was Nien Numb ending a turn stress free even though he Talon Rolled onto debris then popped Rage, all because he was in-arc of his target at range 1.. that's 4 stress removed in one turn! I also did some pretty nifty things with my U-Wing. Love the pivot ability.

However, Kylo Ren was... not fun, to put it mildly.

My friend used Kylo to slap ISYTDS on Keyan. I managed my approach well and avoided taking the crit for a turn or two, thanks to some careful flying. I stayed at Range 3 (where RAC's crit ability doesn't work) when I could, and used obstacles to get bonus defense dice. I forced RAC to bump Cassian, to make it costly for my opponent to assign the condition, but Dauntless Title allowed the action, and Gunner + RAC crit was enough to get past Keyan's low agility anyway. I had to close the distance to Range 1-2 at some point, and Keyan finally ate a crit. He got blinded that turn, no shooting for him. Then he got blinded the following turn. The third turn, there were no more Blinded Pilot cards in the deck, but that was just fine, because my friend just picked one of the other Pilot Crits and killed Keyan outright. Keyan had 4 shields left when he died, because those stupid crits completely bypass them. So in addition to not getting to fire twice, he died way sooner than he should have, because of that bull**** card. I thought it was clever of my friend to include Scourge in his list, because it meant he would get to fire extra dice even against a ship that still had its shields, but it didn't even come up.

Here's where everybody leaps in to say "Git gud, scrub, fly better" and all the usual crap. I really do think I played about as well as could be expected given the circumstances. I did a lot to avoid taking those crits for several turns. Had I stayed out of range with Keyan, then Nien would have suffered Keyan's fate instead. When you're up against a well-flown PWT ship who wants to be in your face and you only have standard arcs, you've got to close the distance sometime if you want to do any damage. I did very well up to a point but had to get stuck in eventually, and when I did, a third of my list was effectively excluded from playing the game despite my best efforts to avoid it.

When I first saw Kylo's condition card, I knew it was going make for many un-fun experiences for many players, but boy has it exceeded my expectations. If you go up against it with any low-agility, high-damage ship, you don't get to play X-Wing with that ship for at least two turns. More than that if Lt. Colzet or a Saboteur is around to flip that Blinded Pilot faceup more than once. If you have the temerity to take an E-Wing, B-Wing, or some other ship with high shields and low hull, you'll just be f***ing dead in a few shots, and there's little you can do about it. I understand that the counter to this is to have lots of cheap ships swarm Kylo, but one 3-point card should not be the end-all counter to 2/3-shipt lists. If I had known what I was going to be playing against, I would have brought a swarm, but you can't always predict what you're going to play against and build around it, esp. at game stores and tournaments.

What the hell were the developers thinking when they created this card? Even if it's not strictly overpowered (I did manage to win, even without a third of my list for several turns), it's frustrating as hell and just no fun. Allowing players to repeatedly ignore shields also feels wrong in the same way that I always felt that Dengaroo's massive stress token pile felt wrong. On top of all that, the rules for the card are long, complicated, and clunky. When the condition card came out, I had to read it several times, then look up a discussion to be sure that I actually understood how it works. This card is a failure on every level, in my opinion, and I'm sad that it will probably see a LOT of play in the coming meta.

You know what's also going to see a lot more play in the coming meta?

Determination.

Determination Rey chuckles when Emo Ren tries to show her the Dark Side. Especially when she's crewing with Chewbacca.

2 minutes ago, Hawkstrike said:

Determination Rey chuckles when Emo Ren tries to show her the Dark Side. Especially when she's crewing with Chewbacca.

That ept slot will be missed though. I know a lot of lists that need their VI and PTL

Just now, BlueMusketeer28 said:

That ept slot will be missed though. I know a lot of lists that need their VI and PTL

This. Determination would be great against Kylo lists but will be very lackluster against absolutely everything else.

4 minutes ago, mkevans80 said:

This. Determination would be great against Kylo lists but will be very lackluster against absolutely everything else.

Yeah, you basically can't just slap VI or PtL on everyone with an open slot and call it a day anymore. You need to consider if you really need that extra PS or action economy or would you rather ensure you can't get Pilot crits? Against non-Kylo lists, its not as important, but could help on the odd occasion.

In any case, the other option is to consider adding stress control in your lists. A stressed out RAC can't Kylo.

So fly a Crack Swarm. While Emo Ren is flashing one of the TIEs his junk, the other five are ganking his ride.

Or bring Boba Fett, and pitch Kylo out the airlock.

I would guess it was made to be a predator to high health ships that could hammer the enemy to oblivion (Rey, for example).

The ability to place a pilot crit on people is about controlling the engagement. And all control elements (like stress, ion, tractor) are NPEs when they work right. And considering how most of the best traditional avenues of control are better done in Rebel or Scum, I'm pseudo-okay with the Imps getting something new in that category. (The pseudo part being that I dislike control in general.)

As for it becoming a thing in the new meta, I actually doubt it. With Kylo needing an action and the recent nerf to x7s, I'm betting we'll see even more stress mechanics out and about. Ships like the Stresshog or Stressmule can shut all that down for a long time and other abilities like Ventress's can potentially give some breathing room. Bumping will probably also see a resurgence, though it will have limited effectiveness against the RAC version if the Dauntless title is being used. Kylo builds will probably still be out there, but there seems to be enough predators for it to keep it from dominance.

4 minutes ago, Hawkstrike said:

So fly a Crack Swarm. While Emo Ren is flashing one of the TIEs his junk, the other five are ganking his ride.

Or bring Boba Fett, and pitch Kylo out the airlock.

Doesn't help if it's not how people like to fly

A lot of these responses are exactly what I predicted... "Bring X, it counters Kylo perfectly." Well yeah, but I'm not prescient. Every list has its counters, even this obscenity of a card. My biggest point is that this list is NOT FUN TO PLAY AGAINST.

6 minutes ago, Hawkstrike said:

Or bring Boba Fett, and pitch Kylo out the airlock.

Heh, race to see who can get the crit in faster.

20 minutes ago, BlueMusketeer28 said:

Doesn't help if it's not how people like to fly

Point being, there are always counters; it's hard to complain if you happen to run into something that just counters you but can be dealt with in other ways. You either need to adapt through list building or adapt through tactics. Want a two-ship low agility list that counters Kylo? Raging Chewie and Determination Leebo shut him down cold.

RAC Kylo is giving up actions to activate Kylo's ability, so it's hardly an optimal choice.

As to fun to play against ... Quad TLTs, Zuckuss Alpha Party Buses, Regen Corran/Miranda, Kanan/Biggs, and Dengaroo (until next week anyway) are far less fun for me to fly against than Kylo Ren.

Just now, mkevans80 said:

A lot of these responses are exactly what I predicted... "Bring X, it counters Kylo perfectly." Well yeah, but I'm not prescient. Every list has its counters, even this obscenity of a card. My biggest point is that this list is NOT FUN TO PLAY AGAINST.

But combos like that have existed for a long time. Take the Stresshog. I can't tell you how much I loathe that thing. I think it sucks all the fun out of the game and was very happy it nearly became extinct after Imp Vets came out. Believe me, saying that we'll see more of those in the future meta brings me no joy. But I have to admit it is a legitimate tactic. So, I either have to adjust my squad to reduce the NPE effect, or take my lumps and move on.

When building a list, you have to consider what it is weak against, what it is strong against, and what you are likely to face in battle (the current meta) and how you are going to compensate for that.

If you are just throwing a list together and just hoping to see if it sticks against all comers instead of planning for what you may fight against, good luck.

As far as it being an NPE because you do not like flying against it ... ok? I don't like flying against Biggs. Still do. Still think he's an NPE. Oh well. Vent about it, then maybe consider some of the suggestions people are offering.

Maybe some day you'll see some Kylo player venting on the forums about stresshogs shutting him down all the time or Determination making his combo worthless.

1 minute ago, kris40k said:

When building a list, you have to consider what it is weak against, what it is strong against, and what you are likely to face in battle (the current meta) and how you are going to compensate for that.

If you are just throwing a list together and just hoping to see if it sticks against all comers instead of planning for what you may fight against, good luck.

As far as it being an NPE because you do not like flying against it ... ok? I don't like flying against Biggs. Still do. Still think he's an NPE. Oh well. Vent about it, then maybe consider some of the suggestions people are offering.

Maybe some day you'll see some Kylo player venting on the forums about stresshogs shutting him down all the time or Determination making his combo worthless.

You've got a point. Admittedly, I like some control element, so I'm the bane of many a poster... Kyle just seems more troublesome than stresshogs or Biggs to me, but it could just be a me thing. It just seems like the approach is harder to nail, and his ship a bit tougher than the more common control ships. Also ions and stress don't deal shield bypassing damage and totally disable your guns....

I submit too that the real NPE isn't Kylo; it's Blinded Pilot. "Nope" effects that prevent you from using your squad's abilities are pretty frustrating.

Ultimately I think the best way to adjust to NPE is to adjust your own headspace. Make the NPE a challenge: how do I beat this list with what I have? What new tactic can I devise? Flipping the mental approach has helped me avoid frustration with a number of squad builds.

For the record, nowhere in my rant did I request help for tips on how to deal with this list.

I am perfectly aware of all the ways to counter a list with Kylo in it. I had already thought of most of the suggestions people have suggested here.... they are all pretty obvious to me.

I simply feel that ISYTDS is gimmicky, overly complicated, feels like it breaks fundamental aspects of the game, and is not fun to play against. Good flying doesn't really help, as I proved with my experience... you just need to bring one of the counters and then you're good. To respond to Sabine, I feel like the Stresshog is b.s. too. I dislike all of the stuff that allows virtually unlimited stress to pile up (such as Dengaroo, good riddance). It feels like it's exploiting loopholes in the mechanics of the game. That much stress on a ship or pilot should cause that ship or pilot to explode into a fine red mist.

Edit: Spot on that the real problem here is Blinded Pilot. I f#$@ing hate that godd@mn crit... so of course I draw it every single match.

3 minutes ago, mkevans80 said:

For the record, nowhere in my rant did I request help for tips on how to deal with this list.

I am perfectly aware of all the ways to counter a list with Kylo in it. I had already thought of most of the suggestions people have suggested here.... they are all pretty obvious to me.

I simply feel that ISYTDS is gimmicky, overly complicated, and not fun to play against. Good flying doesn't really help, as I proved with my experience... you just need to bring one of the counters and then you're good. To respond to Sabine, I feel like the Stresshog is b.s. too. I dislike all of the stuff that allows virtually unlimited stress to pile up (such as Dengaroo, good riddance). It feels like it's exploiting loopholes in the mechanics of the game. That much stress on a ship or pilot should cause that ship or pilot to explode into a fine red mist.

I think FFG puts things like this out strictly to control the Meta. Large high hitpoint ships dominate the meta and Kylo is good against them. FFG givith, and FFG takith away

What a nice community to provide helpful tips to this silly rant.

My own input:

Edit: Phone doesn't want to show it. Oh wells.

Shoo, troll.

Conditions in general seem lousy to me. But the kylo stuff feels...

Extra rat infested ,crawling with worms ,rotten meat breathed,festering, and icky kind of lousy.

5 minutes ago, mkevans80 said:

For the record, nowhere in my rant did I request help for tips on how to deal with this list.

I am perfectly aware of all the ways to counter a list with Kylo in it. I had already thought of most of the suggestions people have suggested here.... they are all pretty obvious to me.

I simply feel that ISYTDS is gimmicky, overly complicated, feels like it breaks fundamental aspects of the game, and is not fun to play against. Good flying doesn't really help, as I proved with my experience... you just need to bring one of the counters and then you're good. To respond to Sabine, I feel like the Stresshog is b.s. too. I dislike all of the stuff that allows virtually unlimited stress to pile up (such as Dengaroo, good riddance). It feels like it's exploiting loopholes in the mechanics of the game. That much stress on a ship or pilot should cause that ship or pilot to explode into a fine red mist.

Edit: Spot on that the real problem here is Blinded Pilot. I f#$@ing hate that godd@mn crit... so of course I draw it every single match.

I disagree about kylo, I think it's a cool ability - and if you're wasting an action on him then you aren't getting mods, or you're in a worse position. It's not complicated really, it's "action: pick a critical to deal through shields vs ship X". I'm not sure how it breaks any fundamental aspect of the game, except that flying your ships isn't all that's required anymore, you need a good list too.

Having a ton of stress does have an effect, because you need to spend points on stuff to deal with the downsides - aka manaroo - or accept that you don't get actions. And think of it this way, they're using tech/abilities to keep them calm in crazy situations on the battlefield when normal pilots would be shaking in their seats.

I agree with Blinded Pilot though, I hate it too - I think not attacking/not rolling dice (looking at you Kanan-Biggs) are more NPE than something that can hit you really hard.

Seriously though, can someone explain why people are complaining about condition cards in general? Look at Agent Kallus - would you rather have that hot mess of a card be used repeatedly? Conditions are simply a more elegant version of this.

2 minutes ago, Velvetelvis said:

Conditions in general seem lousy to me.

Agreed, with one exception: I actually like Captain Rex's condition very much. It's not that complicated and it makes for a good gaming experience. My friend has included Rex pilot in several builds and I enjoy shaking my fist in mock rage when I want to shoot somebody other than Rex but will lose a red die if I do. All I have to do is blow away Rex in his flimsy Tie, but that can be easier said than done if Rex is flying right.

ISYTDS is offal that I'd scrape off the side of my boot. Hux's condition is just overly complicated. You give out up to three focus, but place a special token on ONE ship, which can't spend its focus defensively, but CAN set aside the FIRST hit it changes to make it unblockable. REALLY? FFS....

11 minutes ago, mkevans80 said:

Edit: Spot on that the real problem here is Blinded Pilot. I f#$@ing hate that godd@mn crit... so of course I draw it every single match.

This, really. I remember a few games where that crit singlehandedly changed the outcome of the game. I had my Riad at one hull getting attacked by 2 opponents and Rexler Brath at half health. My opponent would have wiped Riad and then have two ships to hunt down Rexler - insert Rexler dealing out Blinded Pilot, buying me a turn to get the game down to one on one and ultimately winning what I realisticaly shouldn't have won. As much as I love the new damage deck, buffing Blinded Pilot was not a good idea.

Kylo is a good card, until you enter blinded pilot, I feel. The other pilot crits are specific debuffs, where some hurt specific ships more than others. Blinded Pilot is just the alrounder that hurts everyone a lot, like the optimal crits for each specific opponent.

I still don't really mind Kylo and found him to be underwhelming so far, but I see that he has issues.

1 hour ago, mkevans80 said:

Played a game against my friend yesterday. He had Kylo crew on RAC (VI) with Scourge and a Tie Striker generic . I had Nien, Keyn, and Cassian in a list I call "Anger Management" that focuses on shedding large amounts of stress from Rage (inspired by one of Thrawn's youtube battle reps... great stuff). I won the match with one ship remaining, with only 1 hit point left on Nien. He managed to kill the enemy Striker by getting behind him. He was able to slow-roll and force the Striker to fly past him, so he could get a shot off for the win. Strikers are crazy... difficult to fly, very unpredictable to fly against, but super fun. Even if they don't turn out to be tournament-worthy ships, I foresee lots of fun games in my future with those ships.

There were a lot of fun things about the game. The highlight for me was Nien Numb ending a turn stress free even though he Talon Rolled onto debris then popped Rage, all because he was in-arc of his target at range 1.. that's 4 stress removed in one turn! I also did some pretty nifty things with my U-Wing. Love the pivot ability.

However, Kylo Ren was... not fun, to put it mildly.

My friend used Kylo to slap ISYTDS on Keyan. I managed my approach well and avoided taking the crit for a turn or two, thanks to some careful flying. I stayed at Range 3 (where RAC's crit ability doesn't work) when I could, and used obstacles to get bonus defense dice. I forced RAC to bump Cassian, to make it costly for my opponent to assign the condition, but Dauntless Title allowed the action, and Gunner + RAC crit was enough to get past Keyan's low agility anyway. I had to close the distance to Range 1-2 at some point, and Keyan finally ate a crit. He got blinded that turn, no shooting for him. Then he got blinded the following turn. The third turn, there were no more Blinded Pilot cards in the deck, but that was just fine, because my friend just picked one of the other Pilot Crits and killed Keyan outright. Keyan had 4 shields left when he died, because those stupid crits completely bypass them. So in addition to not getting to fire twice, he died way sooner than he should have, because of that bull**** card. I thought it was clever of my friend to include Scourge in his list, because it meant he would get to fire extra dice even against a ship that still had its shields, but it didn't even come up.

Here's where everybody leaps in to say "Git gud, scrub, fly better" and all the usual crap. I really do think I played about as well as could be expected given the circumstances. I did a lot to avoid taking those crits for several turns. Had I stayed out of range with Keyan, then Nien would have suffered Keyan's fate instead. When you're up against a well-flown PWT ship who wants to be in your face and you only have standard arcs, you've got to close the distance sometime if you want to do any damage. I did very well up to a point but had to get stuck in eventually, and when I did, a third of my list was effectively excluded from playing the game despite my best efforts to avoid it.

When I first saw Kylo's condition card, I knew it was going make for many un-fun experiences for many players, but boy has it exceeded my expectations. If you go up against it with any low-agility, high-damage ship, you don't get to play X-Wing with that ship for at least two turns. More than that if Lt. Colzet or a Saboteur is around to flip that Blinded Pilot faceup more than once. If you have the temerity to take an E-Wing, B-Wing, or some other ship with high shields and low hull, you'll just be f***ing dead in a few shots, and there's little you can do about it. I understand that the counter to this is to have lots of cheap ships swarm Kylo, but one 3-point card should not be the end-all counter to 2/3-shipt lists. If I had known what I was going to be playing against, I would have brought a swarm, but you can't always predict what you're going to play against and build around it, esp. at game stores and tournaments.

What the hell were the developers thinking when they created this card? Even if it's not strictly overpowered (I did manage to win, even without a third of my list for several turns), it's frustrating as hell and just no fun. Allowing players to repeatedly ignore shields also feels wrong in the same way that I always felt that Dengaroo's massive stress token pile felt wrong. On top of all that, the rules for the card are long, complicated, and clunky. When the condition card came out, I had to read it several times, then look up a discussion to be sure that I actually understood how it works. This card is a failure on every level, in my opinion, and I'm sad that it will probably see a LOT of play in the coming meta.

Maybe I've missed something with RAC and Keyan as they aren't pilots I fly. But Chirpy lets you flip a focus to a crit (at 1 - 2), it's not auto bypassing shields. If Keyan died with 4 shields left.... were you taking the crits direct from Kylo's ability? And if you were... why weren't you cancelling at least the first one with a shield?