8 hours ago, Tobbert said:

Compare a previously dead ship to a ship that only sees the field because one pilot has an incredible effect...

Corran has an incredible effect, but in pretty much any other ship his ability wouldn't be nearly as good. FCS makes his double tap work much better than it would in (say) a T-70, and the greens on his dial make a "run away and regen" turn work better than if he were in (say) a T-65. That regen turn also takes away some of the sting of his not being able to fire after his double tap.

Quite frankly, given the action bar and upgrade slots, I can understand why FFG priced all the other E-Wings as badly as they did. Especially if they were play testing them against the TIE Advanced and TIE Defender.

9 hours ago, Phoenix5454 said:

Thank you. I don't understand all the complaining about rebels. They have some really good setups. I was watching a youtube video of sling-paint covering a tournament in South Carolina and a guy with a Rey Falcon and Fin, tactical jammer (cant remember the other upgrades) and Jan ors with trick shot, moldy crow and kanan destroyed his opponent in 20 min! I cant remember all the ships the opponent had but one was definitely an X/7 Countess Ryad and a palp upsilon shuttle pre nerf (2 weeks ago). Then there are all the videos i've seen with some form of a ghost list just laying down the pain in tournaments. You're always at the mercy of the dice but the rebels have decent options.

People need to be brave, and learn more ways to win. We are basically lazy, that's all

10 hours ago, Talamare said:

What are you talking about, in recent tournament results across the world. Scum and Rebels are dominating with Empire spamming Palp and Defenders.

You're wrong. Not entirely but about Rebels dominating. Not since a long time.

http://meta-wing.com/ship_combos?

Dash/Miranda still being competitive is a saving grace for Rebels, it's mostly scum dominating. And that's why nerfbat hit them hardest. Empire second best, with a substantial nerf to Emperor and a minor nerf to X7 seems also a correct read by FFG.

Now after this we might see Rebel lists becoming really dominant again. But it's only then that a nerf on Miranda or Sabine can be discussed. IF that really happens. Because Emperor was there for years now before something happened, Manaroo also had more than 6 months of being in nearly every Scum list.

My impression is that people are just jumping in front of thetrain a bit too early here. We had a pretty long timespan where Rebels could jot field a truly top notch list like Parattani, U-Boats (pre nerf), or Palp Defenders.

I have no idea why some here are asking for preemptive nerfs on Rebel Ships and equipment that did not even remotely break the meta.

On topic, i think they have to wait for afew months in order to implement balancing changes after a meta has somewhat settled. And that's just what they did in this case.

12 hours ago, Kdubb said:

In fact, Rebel list building is what list building should look like for every faction. When I build a rebel list, every ship has at least one option I can comfortably take and expect to be successful with. Ideally, there would be more than just one option for a number of these ships (E-wing most specifically), but at least the options are there.

Two thoughts:

1. Imperials are similar in that regard because...
2. ... I don't agree that every ship has at least one option if options allow for more than one single build of the whole squadron. E.g. Inquisitor is an option because he can be paired with more than one other ship/rest of the list.

• A-Wings have Jake and Green Sqds
• B-Wings have Blue Sqds
• E-Wings have Corran
• K-Wings have TLT-Miranda in different variations (Homing missile, Control or Damage bombs)
• U-Wing... uh, I'm not sure, apparently nobody can make it work yet
• X-Wings have Biggs
• T-70 are coming (Poe, Snap, Nien, Jess)
• Y-Wings have TLT-Gold/Grey Sqd and some crazy people () fly Horton with Expertise...
• Z-95 are fillers
• YT-1300 have Han and Rey
• YT-2400 have HLC-Dash, in 3 slightly variated builds (58 with Kanan/Kyle+EU, or no EU and Rey/ReconSpec)
• VCX-100 have Kanan and generic
• Attack shuttle as Zeb on Kanan
• ARC170 has Braylen, Norra, and apparently even Thane by now
• HWK has... uh... ?

So while that looks really good, there are two examples that only work in a single list:

• Zeb only with Kanan
• B-Wings only in BBBBZ

And then there's also the HWK and the U-Wing, of which I'm not sure what option you are talking about.
So I think the difference to Firespray+Punisher of Imperials is not that large.

And as always in games with factions and metagames, the grass is greener on the other side. Rebel lists were all just below S-Tier for such a long time. I think Dash, Norra, Miranda, 3Ks, and KananBiggs are all great lists that might be up there.

(But that doesn't mean the classic™ rebel ships are fine, because they are - with the exception of Meatbag-Biggs - clearly below the strength of the good lists, independent of faction)

41 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

• A-Wings have Jake and Green Sqds
• B-Wings have Blue Sqds
• E-Wings have Corran
• K-Wings have TLT-Miranda in different variations (Homing missile, Control or Damage bombs)
• U-Wing... uh, I'm not sure, apparently nobody can make it work yet
• X-Wings have Biggs
• T-70 are coming (Poe, Snap, Nien, Jess)
• Y-Wings have TLT-Gold/Grey Sqd and some crazy people () fly Horton with Expertise...
• Z-95 are fillers
• YT-1300 have Han and Rey
• YT-2400 have HLC-Dash, in 3 slightly variated builds (58 with Kanan/Kyle+EU, or no EU and Rey/ReconSpec)
• VCX-100 have Kanan and generic
• Attack shuttle as Zeb on Kanan
• ARC170 has Braylen, Norra, and apparently even Thane by now
• HWK has... uh... ?

So while that looks really good, there are two examples that only work in a single list:

• Zeb only with Kanan
• B-Wings only in BBBBZ

This is a well thought thread and list. I do think it illuminates a point I have in my mind (if it's working on a Monday AM, haha). The Empire has a top dog in the smarting Defender X7 and some solid ships if flown well. The Scum have the best ships (save Defender pre-nerf) in the game with fantastic (cheap) crew and mind-link-ing shenanigans. The Rebels do have the most balanced fleet in the game; they are solid and have very good crew and weapons, there just isn't anything that's quite OP enough to point at and complain, aside from TLTs.

I think Rebels will be set up to have the weapons (due to recent nerfs) to ****** the World Championship back from Scum's one year grab, and the Empire will fall back to third place. I think it is the basic design strategy of FFG over the past few months, conspiracies aside. But the CROC seems to have some cool Scum/Rebel tools, that could upset the apple cart....it was probably designed last year, pre-FAQ initial discussions.

...and it's not even raining here.

36 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

The Rebels do have the most balanced fleet in the game; they are solid and have very good crew and weapons, there just isn't anything that's quite OP enough to point at and complain, aside from TLTs.

I completely agree.

In fact I would go as far to say that Rebels are the best designed faction because the discrepancy between the good and the bad ships (not pilots) is not as large. The other factions are more of a problem, and specifically for their outliers that overperform!

My thought is simple - if we take Defenders or Paratanni as baseline, how many ships need to be adjusted to compete?
If we take all the 'crappy' ships as baseline, how many need to be adjusted?

Take the case with the lower answer and act accordingly.

But then again that won't happen due to the ever-increasing power creep, which honestly is fine because FFG needs to make money. But they surely did not make their own job easier that way - unless they don't care of course.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

I completely agree.

In fact I would go as far to say that Rebels are the best designed faction because the discrepancy between the good and the bad ships (not pilots) is not as large. The other factions are more of a problem, and specifically for their outliers that overperform!

My thought is simple - if we take Defenders or Paratanni as baseline, how many ships need to be adjusted to compete?
If we take all the 'crappy' ships as baseline, how many need to be adjusted?

Take the case with the lower answer and act accordingly.

But then again that won't happen due to the ever-increasing power creep, which honestly is fine because FFG needs to make money. But they surely did not make their own job easier that way - unless they don't care of course.

Defenders I feel are not at the Paratanni level as they once almost were, I'm not sure who will be runner up now, I think it will be a Rebel Build with K-Wings in the mix and that crazy Sabine chick doing her OP thing. FFG cannot bring ships up to the Mindlink level without completely breaking the game; Mindlink must be reigned in to the logical power at Range 1.

I think the design intent from FFG is that they'd like ship/crew/mods to be the top of the power-pile and can even be OP; but they don't want a single ship and their pilot to be at the top without other ships any lots of modifications. I mean, we love our game, but it's a business at its core. If one can go purchase a few ships a la carte without having to buy lots of other non-Meta ships to get the correct cards to create said highly Meta competitive squad, how the **** can FFG make money? How can the business flourish? The game would dwindle and die, correct? I get that. I get power creep is inevitable too because they HAVE to sell ships that are as good as the current best or better; if not, who would buy them?

On the other hand, if this is a collectors game of love of the Star Wars universe, can the power creep business as usual not also kill the game? In this vein, maybe FFG needs to feed the Star Wars love and bring the Core ships back to the front and ride the Star Wars hard-core and forget about riding the typical game growth mechanics that other games have done. IDK, this is a tough balancing act. I'm glad I'm not a designer of this awesome game.

17 hours ago, banjobenito said:

" Everyone likes to complain about Biggs and Regen, but it's all the Rebelion has really "

Well, there's Miranda, the best small-base ship in the game. And there's the triple Ks, an absolutely beast-mode list..

If you are talking about Rebel regen, wouldn't that kind of include Miranda by default?

3 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

I get power creep is inevitable too because they HAVE to sell ships that are as good as the current best or better; if not, who would buy them?

Maybe the trick is to spiral up the power - every ship gets its turn, so to speak. The lack of titles for some old ships suggests that FFG keeps this possibility open.

But the problem would be easier and better to solve by different game modes. Maybe one that limits pilots but not upgrades?
Also campaigns. An official HotAC clone with leveling, for example.

One thing we should not forget when discussing alternative modes: they are never mutually exclusive!
Nothing in a campaign stops me from playing 100/6 turnaments, and nothing in a "120/8 Wave1-3 only" tournament stops me from also playing 100/6.

So to sum it up: power creep is ok if spiralling/alternating, but different game modes with official support would make the life of FFG so much easier!

6 hours ago, ForceM said:

You're wrong. Not entirely but about Rebels dominating. Not since a long time.

http://meta-wing.com/ship_combos?

Dash/Miranda still being competitive is a saving grace for Rebels, it's mostly scum dominating. And that's why nerfbat hit them hardest. Empire second best, with a substantial nerf to Emperor and a minor nerf to X7 seems also a correct read by FFG.

Now after this we might see Rebel lists becoming really dominant again. But it's only then that a nerf on Miranda or Sabine can be discussed. IF that really happens. Because Emperor was there for years now before something happened, Manaroo also had more than 6 months of being in nearly every Scum list.

My impression is that people are just jumping in front of thetrain a bit too early here. We had a pretty long timespan where Rebels could jot field a truly top notch list like Parattani, U-Boats (pre nerf), or Palp Defenders.

I have no idea why some here are asking for preemptive nerfs on Rebel Ships and equipment that did not even remotely break the meta.

On topic, i think they have to wait for afew months in order to implement balancing changes after a meta has somewhat settled. And that's just what they did in this case.

http://meta-wing.com/ship_combos?ranking_start=2017-02-02&ranking_end=2017-03-13&large_tournament_multiplier=true&widespread_use_multiplier=true&use_ranking_data=elimination&tournament_type=6&

Cutting it down to Regionals and to only top ranks. Since it doesn't matter what is most brought, but what actually wins and we see that...

Parattani is completely broken holy wow... Also, that Scum is 1st, 4th, 5th, and 6th... Rebel is 2nd and 7th... Empire is 3rd and 8th...

Either way, That proves Rebels is doing slightly better than Empire...... I think, Empire and Rebels need to establish a temporary Truce and focus our efforts on nerfing Scum further...

Until of course Empire's sudden, but inevitable betrayal.

17 hours ago, Hawkstrike said:

Personally I think FFG missed two Rebel abilities in the recent FAQ:

1. Sabine -- I think she should have to be on the ship that dropped the bomb, or in range 1-3 of it (or both) for her ability to trigger. It shouldn't be the entire squad, on the entire map, all the time.

2. Miranda regen on TLT is too generous, since there's a second shot. I'd like to see her ability limited to "primary weapon only".

YMMV.

I'd like to see TLT (or indeed, any turret upgrade) on a PWT ship fix the primary weapon to be in-arc only. One of the most annoying things for me about K Wings is the lack of donut hole.

17 hours ago, Hawkstrike said:

Personally I think FFG missed two Rebel abilities in the recent FAQ:

1. Sabine -- I think she should have to be on the ship that dropped the bomb, or in range 1-3 of it (or both) for her ability to trigger. It shouldn't be the entire squad, on the entire map, all the time.

2. Miranda regen on TLT is too generous, since there's a second shot. I'd like to see her ability limited to "primary weapon only".

YMMV.

I'd like to see TLT (or indeed, any turret upgrade) on a PWT ship fix the primary weapon to be in-arc only. One of the most annoying things for me about K Wings is the lack of donut hole.

On 3/12/2017 at 11:56 AM, GreenDragoon said:

That's one of them, yes. I didn't want to derail the thread, but...

Others include:

• Y-Wings with EPTs
• Khiraxz fix
• Starviper fix
• Other tournament modes
• campaigns, better missions
• an answer to power&complexity creep
• the shift to list bulding
• the shift to actions instead of movement
• ...

That's by no means an exhaustive list, but they all took more than 6 months already

Fixing items that break the power curve at the top is a much higher priority than fixing items at the bottom. It's just the nature of balance.

18 hours ago, Hawkstrike said:

2. Miranda regen on TLT is too generous, since there's a second shot. I'd like to see her ability limited to "primary weapon only".

That makes sense. Otherwise be in line with other "attack" abilities it would have to apply to both attacks. Then it's a little too good with TLT if you're spending a shield token. And thematically she's adjusting the power output a bumping up a missile doesn't make sense.

1 hour ago, Jetfire said:

Fixing items that break the power curve at the top is a much higher priority than fixing items at the bottom. It's just the nature of balance.

Of course. If you read my other response, you'll see that I argue exactly for that, too, in an even stronger manner:

"My thought is simple - if we take Defenders or Paratanni as baseline, how many ships need to be adjusted to compete?
If we take all the 'crappy' ships as baseline, how many need to be adjusted?

Take the case with the lower answer and act accordingly."

But that's not how FFG acted. I would like them to fix the top of the power curve to flatten the whole curve.
However, FFG won't fix the power curve at the top as much as necessary because, allegedly, that would remove the incentive to buy new products. So they 'fix' the power curve at the very top to keep them still at the top above the rest, but slightly lower than before.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Of course. If you read my other response, you'll see that I argue exactly for that, too, in an even stronger manner:

"My thought is simple - if we take Defenders or Paratanni as baseline, how many ships need to be adjusted to compete?
If we take all the 'crappy' ships as baseline, how many need to be adjusted?

Take the case with the lower answer and act accordingly."

But that's not how FFG acted. I would like them to fix the top of the power curve to flatten the whole curve.
However, FFG won't fix the power curve at the top as much as necessary because, allegedly, that would remove the incentive to buy new products. So they 'fix' the power curve at the very top to keep them still at the top above the rest, but slightly lower than before.

The reason is very simple, the target for their ship design is where they are clipping power down to. You can argue what you think is a good power level but they decided to have it at the present level and that is what they aim for with all design and testing.

6 minutes ago, Jetfire said:

The reason is very simple, the target for their ship design is where they are clipping power down to. You can argue what you think is a good power level but they decided to have it at the present level and that is what they aim for with all design and testing.

That's what I would argue for an ideal game - the good level would be where less ships need to be adjusted as opposed to more ships.

But - as mentioned - I understand why FFG does not do that. It's just what I would see as better, but I don't have to run a business.