Wow, this means they really screwed Palp. At least let me reroll before deciding what dice i should change...

No, no reroll for you!

im sure the next FAQ will cut Palpy down to one seat and 4 pts because of all the cabins and cheese flying around the forum.

The 'best' use for Nu Palp might be on those rolls that use one die and seek one result, like sabatuer or other action upgrades. But then everyone 'knows' that action upgrades are 'bad' anyway.

Nope. Best use of nu palp is getting crits.

5 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Nope. Best use of nu palp is getting crits.

Or an evade when you absolutely, positively want to ensure something lives (e.g. a de-cloaked Whisper, or a token-less Soontir.)

I finally got an email back from Frank Brooks on this. I haven't run into anyone using Palpatine since the FAQ, but based on this, the Palpatine change happens BEFORE rerolling:

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 5:11 PM, Frank Brooks <[email protected]> wrote:
Hello David,

In response to your rules question:
Rules Question:
Does the new Xwing Palpatine crew timing trigger during the dice rolling steps prior to modifaction or is it applied during the Modify Dice step. For example, can I declare a crit result, reroll dice with a Target lock, and then apply the Palpatine result after reroll?

Rolling and rerolling dice are different effects in the game and are called out separately for the purposes of abilities. Palpatine’s ability only triggers off of rolling dice (the first time) not rerolling dice.

Thanks for playing,

Frank Brooks
Creative Content Developer
Fantasy Flight Games
[email protected]

On 6/16/2017 at 10:13 AM, USCGrad90 said:

I finally got an email back from Frank Brooks on this. I haven't run into anyone using Palpatine since the FAQ, but based on this, the Palpatine change happens BEFORE rerolling:

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 5:11 PM, Frank Brooks <[email protected]> wrote:
Hello David,

In response to your rules question:
Rules Question:
Does the new Xwing Palpatine crew timing trigger during the dice rolling steps prior to modifaction or is it applied during the Modify Dice step. For example, can I declare a crit result, reroll dice with a Target lock, and then apply the Palpatine result after reroll?

Rolling and rerolling dice are different effects in the game and are called out separately for the purposes of abilities. Palpatine’s ability only triggers off of rolling dice (the first time) not rerolling dice.

Thanks for playing,

Frank Brooks
Creative Content Developer
Fantasy Flight Games
[email protected]

Looks like Frank didn't understand the question/the question wasn't clear enough.

Anyone else have a response for this? TO's make any calls at FFG events?

I'm sick of having to convince people to let the TO call it at every event because it is NOT clear anywhere. HLC has a specific FAQ entry telling us that it mods outside of the Modify Dice step. Palpatine does not. Why do we just assume otherwise?

It's an argument of Precedence vs Corner Cases. HLC FAQ entry creates both. I'd rule it in favor of HLC is a Corner Case and should not be used to judge rulings on other cards until a specific FAQ entry on Palp is made. You normally modify all dice during your Modify Dice step, unless something specifically tells you otherwise.

11 minutes ago, phild0 said:

Looks like Frank didn't understand the question/the question wasn't clear enough.

Anyone else have a response for this? TO's make any calls at FFG events?

I'm sick of having to convince people to let the TO call it at every event because it is NOT clear anywhere. HLC has a specific FAQ entry telling us that it mods outside of the Modify Dice step. Palpatine does not. Why do we just assume otherwise?

It's an argument of Precedence vs Corner Cases. HLC FAQ entry creates both. I'd rule it in favor of HLC is a Corner Case and should not be used to judge rulings on other cards until a specific FAQ entry on Palp is made. You normally modify all dice during your Modify Dice step, unless something specifically tells you otherwise.

Seems pretty clear to me that when you use Palpatine, it's only when you roll dice, not when you reroll dice. And Frank was pretty clear there.

It's clear when it happens - it has the same timing as C-3PO and HLC, it happens with the same timing. THe only thing that's unclear about new Palps is his interaction with Lightweight Frame.

11 hours ago, Parravon said:

Seems pretty clear to me that when you use Palpatine, it's only when you roll dice, not when you reroll dice. And Frank was pretty clear there.

Sorry, I misinterpreted the question you asked to Frank.

I thought you asked "When I call Palp before rolling dice, do I do the Palp mod before the opponent mods dice step, or during my modify dice step?"

Your question was definitely different, and well worded, and answered correctly by Frank.

Carry on!

7 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

It's clear when it happens - it has the same timing as C-3PO and HLC, it happens with the same timing. THe only thing that's unclear about new Palps is his interaction with Lightweight Frame.

I have been doing some sleuthing.

I see no FAQ entry about HLC being before player's Modify Dice steps. I vaguely remember it from back in the day. Stealth FAQ change maybe? Itd be hard to notice if something was deleted vs added.

Weird though. Were we all making up this new timing window? I mean, the FAQ specifically says the word Immediately doesn't imply a new timing window. HLC has nothing that states a new timing window. Someone wanna sleuth old versions and find if wording was removed?

With what I'm reading in the most current FAQ, if you compare HLC FAQ to Palpatine FAQ, nothing states in either that the dice mods occur prior to your Modify Dice step. Therefore, we would default to the rulebook and do them in the Modify your Dice step, which lets you do the mods in any order.

(Regardless of what HLC did or didn't say. I still think that using precedence from other card's wording isn't 100% correct, as there is nothing implying those aren't just "corner cases" to make the card function as intended outside of the normal rulebook rules. Id at most call precedence 50% correct and default to TOs for each event, until a specific FAQ entry is made for the card.)

'After x' means 'between x and everything else'.

33 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

'After x' means 'between x and everything else'.

But why?

1) I think the presence of the word after is only there to clarify to not set the dice before rolling. (How else would you clarify that?).

2) Hotshot Copilot's FAQ makes the forced spending of a Focus open to include a huge window, reference FAQ. Palp may be just as open, or at least, default to your dice mod step.

3) Thinking RAW, the timing "after" by itself could include any timing after rolling if it doesn't say "but before everything else". Since no clearly defined timing window, we default to the core rulebook that tells you when you get to mod your dice.

4) Thinking RAI now, FFG could have easily included "but before next step" if that was their intent. It was a FAQ after all, not a < 100 character text upgrade card.

1 hour ago, phild0 said:

But why?

1) I think the presence of the word after is only there to clarify to not set the dice before rolling. (How else would you clarify that?).

2) Hotshot Copilot's FAQ makes the forced spending of a Focus open to include a huge window, reference FAQ. Palp may be just as open, or at least, default to your dice mod step.

3) Thinking RAW, the timing "after" by itself could include any timing after rolling if it doesn't say "but before everything else". Since no clearly defined timing window, we default to the core rulebook that tells you when you get to mod your dice.

4) Thinking RAI now, FFG could have easily included "but before next step" if that was their intent. It was a FAQ after all, not a < 100 character text upgrade card.

Because that's how the 'after x' timing works. If you need precedent, look at the FAQ for Kanan Jarrus's timing weirdnesses.

Another example is gaining a stress token when flying over debris. Overlapping debris assigns a stress token "After the check pilot stress step". This means it is assigned immediately after that step and before the ship has finished performing a maneuver. You cannot decide to give yourself a stress token after your action, or after you have attacked, or 3 rounds later, even though all of those may be "After the check pilot stress step". Any time something is triggered after an event, it is triggered immediately after that event unless something says otherwise. You cannot just hold onto that trigger and decide to use it whenever you wish.

I really do think this is an unfortunate consequence of the new wording. Because how else would you word the errata'd card? You can't make any reference to a 'dice modification' step because Palp can be used on things outside of combat.

It probably needs a clarifying FAQ just like old palp did.

4 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Because that's how the 'after x' timing works. If you need precedent, look at the FAQ for Kanan Jarrus's timing weirdnesses.

There is also precedent in the rule book to only do your dice modifications during the Modify Dice step (unless specifically stated otherwise). I imagine FFG would more likely have left the wording "open" because they knew that dice mods occurred during the "Modify your dice step" rather than deferring to a movement related action which typical have their own subset of rules that aren't as clearly defined, or initiative based, hence why FAQ is needed for that stuff.

3 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

It probably needs a clarifying FAQ just like old palp did.

I agree.

Though, at a minimum I don't think we can 100% say the intent, or 100% point to a rule that makes it clear until FFG gives us a good response. I'm just going to ask each TO at each event I take Palpatine to and get him to make a choice. I've known enough players that have played it from either interpretation that it doesn't seem "clear" to everyone.