Hi just curious, if I am running:

Poe Dameron (PS9) (33)
Push the Limit (3)
BB-8 (2)
Pattern Analyzer (2)
Integrated Astromech (0)
Black One (1)

Is this combination legal:

Reveal a green maneuver

• BB-8 gives you a barrel roll
• Execute green maneuver
  • Move Check Pilot Stress step after Perform Action step (due to Pattern Analyzer)
• Perform your regular action
  • Push the Limit for another action
    • Gain a stress
• Check Pilot Stress step: Clear stress from green maneuver

Can you explain why or why not to me please? I just played in my first tournament and round one I was told I can't do this and I had the build wrong.. so I didn't get to utilize it for the rest of the tournament. Just looking for clarification for a newer player, thanks.

Your build looks good to me. The whole point of Pattern Analyser is to check after the action.

Whoever told you it was wrong probably didn't understand that it works like this. They probably thought PA just let's you get an action before the stress if you de a red maneuver. But getting stress an action or PtL and then checking on a green maneuver works just as fine.

Did they explain why they thought it didn't work? It doesn't sound line they did.

They said because you can't do it after a maneuver, so you can only use it if you were already stressed and then wanted to do a white maneuver, then you can move the check stress AFTER to get an action in still. Basically what you said " They probably thought PA just let's you get an action before the stress if you de a red maneuver."

But they definitely didn't think I could use it to get in two actions with PTL and then clear it in the same turn. And that was the whole point I did this build, so I could basically give myself two actions per turn and not get stressed. So basically for the entire tournament. I should have went to judge. But I was trying to not be difficult as it was literally my first game with this community.

So because I am going to run this build again, but am new, and don't want this to be a problem, is there like a rules guide or something I can quote so there won't be an argument over it? How would I break this down to the simplest X-Wing logic so that it is undeniable.

It's the TOs responsibility to make a ruling and explain it to your opponent, not the players. You should never let your opponent tell you how your cards work, always call over the TO if you're not sure, that's why they are there and they don't have a vested interest in who wins the game like your opponent does. If the TO is the one who told you this doesn't work, contact them and send them a link to this thread so they can be better informed.

This works, but actually Pattern Analyzer doesn't have anything to do with it.

It works like this:

1. Reveal a Green Maneuver
2. The Green Maneuver triggers BB8
3. BB8 grants you a free Barrel Roll action, so let's do a Barrel Roll first
4. Any Action (a free action as well) can trigger Push the Limit
5. You can do another action via Push the Limit now... a boost or focus
6. Now you get a Stress Token from Push the Limit
7. Now you actually do your Green Maneuver, which you revealed in Step 1
8. The Green Maneuver clears your Stress, so the Push the Limit stress is gone now
9. You can do another action, which is your regular action
10. Have fun

Pattern Analyzer works differently:

1. Reveal a Red Maneuver
2. Do the Red Maneuver
3. Do NOT get Stress for the Red Maneuver right away, becaue of Pattern Analyzer
4. Do your action first
5. Get your Stress Token for the Red Maneuver now

Just a hint... these BB8 & Push the limit tricks are pretty cheesy. Don't do things like that too often.

I don't think it's really overpowered, but it's annoying to some people, because it can feel "game breaking" in certain situations.

It's better to do you regular actions with Push the limit and get your stress tokens the way it was meant to be in the first place

10 minutes ago, Schu81 said:

Just a hint... these BB8 & Push the limit tricks are pretty cheesy. Don't do things like that too often.

I don't think it's really overpowered, but it's annoying to some people, because it can feel "game breaking" in certain situations.

It's better to do you regular actions with Push the limit and get your stress tokens the way it was meant to be in the first place

As long as you're not breaking the rules, play the game however you want to. Not having that stress token means you get to k-turn if you need to on the next turn and makes you less vulnerable to certain effects like Latts Razzi and Slicer Tools. As long as fair play is maintained, don't let other people tell you how to enjoy the game.

38 minutes ago, Schu81 said:

This works, but actually Pattern Analyzer doesn't have anything to do with it.

It works like this:

1. Reveal a Green Maneuver
2. The Green Maneuver triggers BB8
3. BB8 grants you a free Barrel Roll action, so let's do a Barrel Roll first
4. Any Action (a free action as well) can trigger Push the Limit
5. You can do another action via Push the Limit now... a boost or focus
6. Now you get a Stress Token from Push the Limit
7. Now you actually do your Green Maneuver, which you revealed in Step 1
8. The Green Maneuver clears your Stress, so the Push the Limit stress is gone now
9. You can do another action, which is your regular action
10. Have fun

Pattern Analyzer works differently:

1. Reveal a Red Maneuver
2. Do the Red Maneuver
3. Do NOT get Stress for the Red Maneuver right away, becaue of Pattern Analyzer
4. Do your action first
5. Get your Stress Token for the Red Maneuver now

35 minutes ago, Schu81 said:

Just a hint... these BB8 & Push the limit tricks are pretty cheesy. Don't do things like that too often.

I don't think it's really overpowered, but it's annoying to some people, because it can feel "game breaking" in certain situations.

It's better to do you regular actions with Push the limit and get your stress tokens the way it was meant to be in the first place

I'm wondering if Schu81 was your opponent in that game, because this **** is ridiculous. You were right, FrogTrigger, and your opponent and Schu81 (same person?) are wrong. PA absolutely works as you've detailed. And that last part that Schu81 wrote?...about not doing things because people won't like it? That's just plain silly.

That opponent? That guy doesn't know what he's talking about. No two ways about it. You can't perform actions when stressed, ever. That idea of his that the point of PA was to get an action while already stressed is about as far wrong as he could get in the basic mechanics of the game.

Nothing cheesy about BB-8 => Push.

Christ, next we'll have people complaining that it's bad form to play well...

1 hour ago, Schu81 said:

Just a hint... these BB8 & Push the limit tricks are pretty cheesy. Don't do things like that too often.

I don't think it's really overpowered, but it's annoying to some people, because it can feel "game breaking" in certain situations.

It's better to do you regular actions with Push the limit and get your stress tokens the way it was meant to be in the first place

Seriously? Like, really?

The point of literally every card in the game is to break the rules in some way. If you only played the game "the way it was meant to be in the first place" you wouldn't be able to use any card.

If you don't like the combo, then you don't use it. But don't tell someone else not to play it just because you don't like it; learn how to play against it if it bothers you that bad. In casual play, you can even ask your friends not to use it; in a tournament, I hope someone utterly destroys you with it.

1 hour ago, FrogTrigger said:

So because I am going to run this build again, but am new, and don't want this to be a problem, is there like a rules guide or something I can quote so there won't be an argument over it? How would I break this down to the simplest X-Wing logic so that it is undeniable.

On this part, I'd recommend bringing the Rules reference from your FA Core Set. It clearly delineates in the Activation Phase portion, the steps taken and how this would work.

I've run this same build with Poe (Well, nearly the same. Autothrusters instead of Integrated, but that has no bearing on this)

It does work, the sequence is thus:

1. Reveal Green
2. Barrel Roll with BB-8
3. Trigger PTL off the Barrel Roll
4. Receive Stress from PTL
5. Execute Green Maneuver
6. Clear Stress
7. Normal Action

The name I usually hear it go by is Acrobat Poe, since you can Barrel Roll before you move, Boost before or after you move, and get a Focus before or after you move. Its a fun little setup, and I love it, but I had to stop running it because I kept running into people who would argue with me about how its not supposed to work that way. Eventually they would come to understand it and agree with me that I'm doing it correct, but nearly every new person I'd play against would say I was somehow breaking the rules... It didn't help that I was flying it alongside a Super-Dash, which to a lot of people also flies in a really strange manner.

Ok, guys.

Clarifying that hat you can ptl off bb8's BR is useful, but he is asking specifically about pattern analyser and the stress from ptl-ing off his regular action.

2 hours ago, Schu81 said:

Just a hint... these BB8 & Push the limit tricks are pretty cheesy. Don't do things like that too often.

I don't think it's really overpowered, but it's annoying to some people, because it can feel "game breaking" in certain situations.

It's better to do you regular actions with Push the limit and get your stress tokens the way it was meant to be in the first place

These BB-8 and Push the Limit "tricks" are completely within the rules and are a fine example of properly nesting actions . Pattern Analyzer just improves things. It's NOT better to do your regular actions and get stress " the way it was meant to be ", because stress inhibits your capabilities. And just how is it meant to be played anyway??

And you should never feel obliged to limit your options just to avoid annoying someone when you're playing well within the rules. There's absolutely nothing cheesy, shady or dodgy with this list. It's a perfect example of upgrades that have synergy with each other. Just like Soontir Fel and Push the Limit were made for each other.

First off, thank you all for the supportive answers.

But what I need is concrete evidence that what I was trying to do was legit, so I can hold it up as a shield in our next tournament. I am new and still trying to figure things out so if you want to just point me towards the area I need to research I am happy to do it myself. Again, the argument was that you can't PTL after you do a maneuver, so if I reveal a green I can't do my green maneuver, then PTL for two actions and clear the stress afterwards. I thought the whole point of pattern analyzer was that you got to move the check stress until the very end, after you PTLed for your two actions (chaining off your first action obviously, regardless of the barrel roll from BB-8). Would I literally just quote the rules reference guide for turn order?

First rule of x-wing. Do what the card tells you to do. Don't do what the card doesn't tell you to do.

You did that and if some one tells you it doesn't work, have them explain step by step why. Have the RRG and FAQ at hand if you have cards that have clear descriptions in the FAQ.

You can always ask here before you fly your list. But you clearly have fully grasped the cards and rules in this instance.

I might actually try this combo muself in my next casual game. Because it seems very effective.

1 hour ago, FrogTrigger said:

First off, thank you all for the supportive answers, I am still a bit peeved at myself that I let one guys opinion influence my whole tournament, but looking back now its clear the guy took things a bit to serious, especially compared to my other opponents. This was literally the second maneuver of the first round of my first X-Wing game, lol. And you know what, I signed up for a tournament so I'll take what I get, but I didn't realize a few piece of acrylic pieces from a quarter kit were worth that much.. Looking across the table though he obviously has a lot invested in this game and I am not judging, it's his call. But the funny thing is I left the event as friends with my other two opponents.

But what I need is concrete evidence that what I was trying to do was legit, so I can hold it up as a shield in our next tournament. I am new and still trying to figure things out so if you want to just point me towards the area I need to research I am happy to do it myself. Again, the argument was that you can't PTL after you do a maneuver , so if I reveal a green I can't do my green maneuver, then PTL for two actions and clear the stress afterwards. I thought the whole point of pattern analyzer was that you got to move the check stress until the very end, after you PTLed for your two actions (chaining off your first action obviously, regardless of the barrel roll from BB-8 ). Would I literally just quote the rules reference guide for turn order?

The text I bolded is actually correct. BUT... if that manoeuvre was also an action (like Daredevil ), then the action would trigger PtL and you'd be fine.

However, you can't reveal a green, perform that manoeuvre, then trigger PtL for two actions. It doesn't work like that. Push the Limit only triggers after you perform an action , but it can be any action that triggers it. Don't get caught by thinking that PtL gives you two actions, because it doesn't. It gives you 1 free action from your action bar after you've performed an action ( which can be any action ) and then it gives you a stress token.

When you throw Pattern Analyzer into the mix, you can execute your green manoeuvre ( without the Check Pilot Stress step ), take your Perform Action step action, PtL for an action bar action ( with Poe, that's target lock, focus or boost ), receive a stress from PtL, then Pattern Analyzer kicks in and you Check Pilot Stress and remove the stress token you just got from PtL.

The rules reference turn order is okay, but Pattern Analyzer does give it a bit of a shuffle, so you need to be careful and fully understand it's normal procedure and the Pattern Analyzer change to that procedure. You also need to be able to explain this to another person (usually ignorant players or TOs) in such a way that they really have no argument against your procedure, because it's all within the rules.

Try creating a couple of scenarios using BB-8, PtL, Pattern Analyzer and various actions, and post them up here so the other forum members here can see if you're on the right track, and correct you if necessary. Good luck.

8 hours ago, Schu81 said:

Pattern Analyzer works differently:

1. Reveal a Red Maneuver
2. Do the Red Maneuver
3. Do NOT get Stress for the Red Maneuver right away, becaue of Pattern Analyzer
4. Do your action first
5. Get your Stress Token for the Red Maneuver now

PA can also work like this if you're unstressed:

1. Reveal a Green Maneuver
2. Do the Green Maneuver
3. Perform an action prior to checking pilot stress (due to PA)
4. Use PTL to trigger & perform second action
5. Receive stress from PTL
6. Now check pilot stress step
7. Green maneuver was performed; clear stress.

For extra shennanigans; run Nien Numb with PTL and PA for all the stress less fun.

7 hours ago, ObiWonka said:

Seriously? Like, really?

The point of literally every card in the game is to break the rules in some way. If you only played the game "the way it was meant to be in the first place" you wouldn't be able to use any card.

If you don't like the combo, then you don't use it. But don't tell someone else not to play it just because you don't like it; learn how to play against it if it bothers you that bad. In casual play, you can even ask your friends not to use it; in a tournament, I hope someone utterly destroys you with it.

I personally like the combo, but I do also like my opponents to enjoy the game as well....

I have been told that this feels frustrating to play against, that's why I don't use this very often. And that's what I was telling here. I know that it is withing the rules. Actually that's why I have used it myself and the reason why I brought this up in the conversation here, but thanks for telling me about the rules (again) anyways. I just think: there are other great options as well, which might be less frustrating for your opponent.

This particular combo is very strong because you can literally redecide where to fly when your ship activates.

That's like a weaker pre-nerf Phantom. Not as mighty, but slightly comparable.

In terms of movement it's also stronger than Soontir, because Mr. Fel has to fly his chosen maneuver first and could get blocked or get into a very uncomfortable position where even his two repositionings might not be helpful anymore. But this combination could go left, right or straight (via barrel roll and pre-maneuver boosting).

9 hours ago, Schu81 said:

Just a hint... these BB8 & Push the limit tricks are pretty cheesy. Don't do things like that too often.

I don't think it's really overpowered, but it's annoying to some people, because it can feel "game breaking" in certain situations.

It's better to do you regular actions with Push the limit and get your stress tokens the way it was meant to be in the first place

BB8 PTL isn't cheesy at all.

BB8 PTL and Pattern Analyser are not synergistic though - they both do roughly the same thing. Pattern Analyser adds the ability to perform an action after a red manoeuvre, but putting the two of them together is usually going to be excessive. BB8 Poe probably prefers Sensor Cluster.

2 hours ago, FrogTrigger said:

First off, thank you all for the supportive answers, I am still a bit peeved at myself that I let one guys opinion influence my whole tournament, but looking back now its clear the guy took things a bit to serious, especially compared to my other opponents. This was literally the second maneuver of the first round of my first X-Wing game, lol. And you know what, I signed up for a tournament so I'll take what I get, but I didn't realize a few piece of acrylic pieces from a quarter kit were worth that much.. Looking across the table though he obviously has a lot invested in this game and I am not judging, it's his call. But the funny thing is I left the event as friends with my other two opponents.

I think it's unfair to assume that people are playing competitively because 'a few bits of acrylic are worth that much'. They're not, but some of us like to play the game to challenge ourselves and be challenged by an opponent. Not that I can't play casually, too, but if I go to a tournament I probably want the challenge.

2 hours ago, FrogTrigger said:

But what I need is concrete evidence that what I was trying to do was legit, so I can hold it up as a shield in our next tournament. I am new and still trying to figure things out so if you want to just point me towards the area I need to research I am happy to do it myself. Again, the argument was that you can't PTL after you do a maneuver, so if I reveal a green I can't do my green maneuver, then PTL for two actions and clear the stress afterwards. I thought the whole point of pattern analyzer was that you got to move the check stress until the very end, after you PTLed for your two actions (chaining off your first action obviously, regardless of the barrel roll from BB-8). Would I literally just quote the rules reference guide for turn order?

Well, on one hand, you won't get concrete evidence. In this case, you'll have to learn the rules and challenge people to prove you wrong.

With that in mind, let me pick at your description from that mindset:

Quote

the argument was that you can't PTL after you do a maneuver

You can't. Push the Limit triggers off a ship taking an action. The card does not specify when that may happen, so any action at any time will suffice, hence BB-8 can trigger it before your manoeuvre, or Arien Cracken can give you a free action during the combat phase and you can Push off that. The only limit is 'once per turn' as stated on the card. You must be absolutely precise when you explain this stuff and leave no room to be misunderstood. That is your only defence in rules discussions

Quote

so if I reveal a green I can't do my green maneuver

I assume this is with reference to Pattern Analyser , which says that you may resolve the Check Pilot Stress step after your Perform Action step . It is not automatic, thus you may perform a green and clear the stress in the usual manner, of you can put it off until later as your discretion. I can't see what else you could mean because taken literally, this clause is nonsense.

Quote

then PTL for two actions and clear the stress afterwards

Again, precision demands that I point out that this is not how it works. Push the Limit gives you one action after you perform an action. When clarity is required, it is best to phrase it this way. This also allows you add definition to your explanation by clarifying when that triggering action happened. For example, "I PtL'd off the free barrel roll BB-8 game me, took the stress from PtL then and there, and then continued my turn, performing a green manoeuvre which removed the stress I just received." Or, "I performed my green manoeuvre and delayed the Check Pilot Stress step using Pattern Analyser , then acquired a target lock in my Perform Action step – after which I used Push the Limit to perform a focus action and take a stress, as well – then resolved my Check Pilot Stress step, which removed one stress from my ship because the manoeuvre was green.'

Quote

Would I literally just quote the rules reference guide for turn order?

Pretty much. Just be sure to familiarise yourself with the exact names of the steps and the exact triggers for any abilities you need to reference. Like most card games, X-Wing is definitely a game that fundamentally requires a certain level of literacy to go alongside player skill and judgement.

And if you think the above caused ripples, just wait until someone uses Nien Numb to reveal a green, trigger BB-8, then change it to a different red manoeuvre with Stay On Target . Or read up on the many threads of Kanan Jarrus vs. Millenium Falcon title. Two triggers off the same event means you choose the order they resolve in. That confuses a lot of people. Finally, look up Kanan Jarrus vs. Inertial Dampeners . If you can learn the rules for that – specifically, why the rules work that way – you'll be able to take on anyway.

3 hours ago, Schu81 said:

I personally like the combo, but I do also like my opponents to enjoy the game as well....

And if your opponents don't like it and really do whine about a perfectly legitimate, and not that powerful combo, then please refer them back to my post.

Right, so if I was to produce something like this with Poe:

Reveal a green maneuver

• Step 1: BB-8 gives me a barrel roll, perform barrel roll
• Step 2: Execute green maneuver
  • Step 2.1: Declare that I want to move the Check Pilot Stress step to after the Perform Action step (due to Pattern Analyzer)
• Step 3: Perform my regular action
  • Step 3.1: Push the Limit for another action
    • Step 3.1.1: Gain a stress from Push the Limit
• Step 4: Perform check Pilot Stress step: Clear stress gained during step 3 from Push the Limit

It should be about as clear as I can get in my description?

His argument was that once I actually performed the maneuver I could no longer use the green maneuver to recover stress even with Pattern Analyzer.. despite Pattern Analyzer saying "When executing a maneuver, you may resolve the "Check Pilot Stress" step after the perform action step. (Instead of before that step)." Basically as others have said in this thread, he said the card was just for executing red maneuvers and still getting an action before becoming stressed.. and that was where I just assumed for the rest of the day I had not built Poe correctly.

He then later agreed with me that I could use it off BB-8's initial barrel roll, then execute the green maneuver and clear the stress.. but I don't think I even need Pattern Analyzer for that?

I may have not been able to explain the process clearly enough to him, so that is on me, but I would think that just reading the Pattern Analyzer card is clarification enough? I sat there looking at it for a good 30 seconds very confused what the problem was..

Again, I was just trying to learn the game so really in the scheme of things I don't care about the wins or losses, but if I am going to learn the game I want to do it correctly, lol. I also feel a little ripped off because I didn't get to fully utilize my list as for the rest of the day when I could have been getting two actions almost every turn I was only getting one, the odd time I would use PTL and get stressed, which was still useful, but not nearly as useful as the combo described above. So I just want to be able to provide clarification for future tournaments for myself and my opponents. Although I feel like I clearly understood the process going in, I just must not have done a good enough job explaining it. This thread will fix that!

16 minutes ago, FrogTrigger said:

His argument was that once I actually performed the maneuver I could no longer use the green maneuver to recover stress even with Pattern Analyzer.. despite Pattern Analyzer saying "When executing a maneuver, you may resolve the "Check Pilot Stress" step after the perform action step. (Instead of before that step)." Basically as others have said in this thread, he said the card was just for executing red maneuvers and still getting an action before becoming stressed.. and that was where I just assumed for the rest of the day I had not built Poe correctly.

He then later agreed with me that I could use it off BB-8's initial barrel roll, then execute the green maneuver and clear the stress.. but I don't think I even need Pattern Analyzer for that?

13 hours ago, FrogTrigger said:

They said because you can't do it after a maneuver, so you can only use it if you were already stressed and then wanted to do a white maneuver, then you can move the check stress AFTER to get an action in still. Basically what you said " They probably thought PA just let's you get an action before the stress if you de a red maneuver."

Based on these two statements I think what is happening is something I've run into before. Some people have the mistaken belief that "Check Pilot stress" confirm the status of either being stressed or not. That step really could do with a better name like Check maneuver difficulty. I've seen this before though, the mistaken belief that PA just lets you temporarily make the players blind to the fact that there is a stress token out on the board, thus (incorrectly) allowing you to do this:

1. be stressed
2. do white move
3. PA lets me not "Check" that there was a stress out there already
4. do action (can PTL too, but the core misunderstanding is already established regardless here)
5. "Check Pilot Stress" = suddenly recover from temporary blindness and realize oh no that guy WAS stressed, jeez how did i miss it!

You can totally do what you wanted to do. if you need an easy way to quickly explain it just say "The check pilot stress step is the step in which I add or remove a stress based upon the color difficulty of my maneuver. I did a green maneuver, pushed to gain stress, then performed my Check Pilot Stress step in which the result was green difficulty removes a stress"

If any further explanation is required, call a TO because this person clearly has the mistaken understanding of what check pilot stress means , like the first guy that gave you bad info.

13 hours ago, Schu81 said:

Just a hint... these BB8 & Push the limit tricks are pretty cheesy. Don't do things like that too often.

I don't think it's really overpowered, but it's annoying to some people, because it can feel "game breaking" in certain situations.

It's better to do you regular actions with Push the limit and get your stress tokens the way it was meant to be in the first place

The game is all about complex interactions to gain a tactical benefit. It is not cheesy or annoying; to say otherwise is poor sportsmanship towards the person playing that list.

I think Smitty has the right of it. The player in question does seem to have the actual process of the Check Pilot Stress step confused. It has come up a lot recently, so it's believable.

The facts are, however, that you have your sequents of events mapped out pretty much perfectly, Frog. If it comes up again, call on a judge to adjudicate for you.

Peace out and fly safe,

Scott