4 hours ago, Tvboy said:

I TO'd a tournament yesterday and we had a brand new player that thought he could use the templates during the planning phase. When I explained that's not allowed, he asked when and how he could use the maneuver templates, and since I didn't want to be one of those ******** TOs that just makes up rules out of thin air, I went to check the four rules documents in this game and found nothing, just a vague rule that symbols on the maneuver dial connect to the templates and how to use the templates to move your ship. It does not specify when you can and cannot use the templates, so FFG basically made me look like a ******** that makes up rules that aren't in the rule book.

I would argue that you are wrong about the old core book being valid for use because FFG does not feature that rule book in the rules documents section of their x-wing website, and I'm pretty sure my core rule book printed in 2012 has a lot of rules in it that have been changed or retired, and FFG doesn't have any kind of up-to-date PDF of that.

Also the argument that "omission = prohibition" does not make sense because then why would FFG spell out a restriction on not being allowed to use the range ruler? That is an explicit prohibition that would not be needed if the "implied prohibition" argument held any water.

edit: I don't want to use maneuver templates whenever we want, I want FFG to address this asap and fix the rules so that we're all playing the game correctly. This is a way bigger problem for new players than any single card errata.

It is definitely an omission from the new Rules Reference, but one way to look at it is there is 1 Rulebook (1st Ed.), 1 Learn-to-Play book (2nd Ed.), 1 Rules Reference and the FAQ. As far as I'm concerned, the rules in the original Rulebook are still in force UNLESS overruled by the new Rules Reference. And an omission is not an overrule. To think " it's no longer in there, so it no longer applies " is just wrong.

The only section of text that applies is on page 15 under Planning .

Quote

PLANNING PHASE
During the Planning phase, each player secretly chooses a maneuver for each of his ships.

If you're pre-measuring with a template, then you're not choosing a manoeuvre secretly , are you? Which means you're technically breaking that particular rule. I know it's a pretty weak argument, but it's the best I can think of given circumstances.

Although FFG don't have the original Rulebook available for download, it is still available via an old core set, so it's still a valid document. The basics are still the same, just with some tweaks and clarifications, and most of those are via the FAQ now anyway.

But I think you're right, FFG do need to reinstate this particular bit of text, either as a rule erratum or in the FAQ.

17 minutes ago, shaunmerritt said:

well here is the thing... you are supposed to declare you are doing a boost first. AA doesn't require that because you MUST do it and without the "pre-measure" wording, we could not find a section/rule that says you cant pre-measure with AA. its a one of kind upgrade. FFG did say in the previews that the card forces you to take the "equivalent" of a boost action, but that's not in the rule book and cannot be enforced. I was the TO and it was not a fun ruling.

You have to declare you're boosting, but putting down the template locks you into a bearing, not just the action. Same as putting down a template for a barrel roll locks you into doing it that direction of possible

5 hours ago, Tvboy said:

I TO'd a tournament yesterday and we had a brand new player that thought he could use the templates during the planning phase. When I explained that's not allowed, he asked when and how he could use the maneuver templates, and since I didn't want to be one of those ******** TOs that just makes up rules out of thin air, I went to check the four rules documents in this game and found nothing, just a vague rule that symbols on the maneuver dial connect to the templates and how to use the templates to move your ship. It does not specify when you can and cannot use the templates, so FFG basically made me look like a ******** that makes up rules that aren't in the rule book.

I would argue that you are wrong about the old core book being valid for use because FFG does not feature that rule book in the rules documents section of their x-wing website, and I'm pretty sure my core rule book printed in 2012 has a lot of rules in it that have been changed or retired, and FFG doesn't have any kind of up-to-date PDF of that.

Also the argument that "omission = prohibition" does not make sense because then why would FFG spell out a restriction on not being allowed to use the range ruler? That is an explicit prohibition that would not be needed if the "implied prohibition" argument held any water.

edit: I don't want to use maneuver templates whenever we want, I want FFG to address this asap and fix the rules so that we're all playing the game correctly. This is a way bigger problem for new players than any single card errata.

I understand the issue and agree that it would be wise if FFG would clarify this in the FAQ or simply make a comprehesive document with everything in it.

One thing to note is that the Learn to Play document states on page 5 that the player uses the template to determine where the ship moves during movement the Activation phase. Again, that does not explicitly say you can't use it in planning, but coupled with the idea of planning moves in secret, it helps you justify your ruling.

im in the camp of if there are no rules to say that you can do something, you can't do it.

1 hour ago, Oberron said:

im in the camp of if there are no rules to say that you can do something, you can't do it.

I better not see you picking up your dice unless youre instructed to roll them. There's a lot of things that we do in the game that the rules don't explicitly tell us we can.

Also FFG decided they needed to clarify when players are not allowed to use the range ruler, they wouldn't have done that if they agreed with you. Also that's not how most players interpret rules and this is exactly what supplemental rules documents are for.

37 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

I better not see you picking up your dice unless youre instructed to roll them. There's a lot of things that we do in the game that the rules don't explicitly tell us we can.

Also FFG decided they needed to clarify when players are not allowed to use the range ruler, they wouldn't have done that if they agreed with you. Also that's not how most players interpret rules and this is exactly what supplemental rules documents are for.

Nothing is wrong with holding dice, im talking about doing things that would obviously effect gameplay, rolling dice when not suppose to can confuse things, measuring when not suppose to gives knowledge that players aren't suppose to have at certain times (is that turn going to avoid the asteroid or clip it before it is dialed in for instance). There are a lot of things we do that rules don't explicitly tell us we can do i agree, but the absence of a rule does not give permission it could have been removed for sake of redundancy and to remove clutter, if the rules said every thing that a player can't do during a game that would be a very long rule book and no one has time for that.

Skimming the rules/faq I found this, not sure if others have quoted it or not yet

Quote

At competitive and premier events, it is critical to resolve maneuvers, perform

actions, and measure range in a strict and defined sequence.

measuring range

Players may only measure range and/or use the range ruler to determine whether a ship is inside or outside of a firing arc at the following times:

•

When a ship becomes the active ship during the combat phase, the active

player can measure range from the active ship to any enemy ships before

declaring one as its target.

•

When a player declares a ship’s ability that requires another ship (or ships)

to be at a certain range, the player trying to resolve the ability can measure

range from their ship to any valid ships before resolving the ability.

•

After declaring the intended target of a target lock action, the active player

may measure range to the intended target, and only to the intended target.

page 6 of the faq

9 hours ago, Parravon said:

Although FFG don't have the original Rulebook available for download, it is still available via an old core set, so it's still a valid document. The basics are still the same, just with some tweaks and clarifications, and most of those are via the FAQ now anyway.

I did some more reading and on Page 2 of the Tournament Regulations:

"Tournaments are played using the rules provided in the X-Wing Rules Reference and FAQ , both of which may be downloaded from the X-Wing page of our website at any time."

So - I would guess this invalidates our argument that the Original Core Rules can be used as a reference.

I really always felt like the Original Core rules document was superior to to the new Rules Reference in the way that it was written.

It also seems like anytime they come out with a new FAQ there are some parts that we immediately find as players that they seem to miss. I just wish the Tournament Regulations would be a comprehensive document to include the FAQ, rules about use of templates, allowance of 3rd Party components, and also restate the rules of play in an organized manner relating to the tournament. That way we wouldn't have multiple documents to refer to with different revision dates.

9 hours ago, Parravon said:

If you're pre-measuring with a template, then you're not choosing a manoeuvre secretly , are you?

To play the devil's advocate here... If you were to plot out say 3-4 different maneuvers you could very much argue that you're still choosing it in secret since the other person has no way of knowing which one of those you actually picked.

While I agree with the "It doesn't say you can't do it, so I can" argument is very weak, that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be something in the rules about not pre measuring especially as more and more games are allowing it now, when they used to prevent it. This is something FFG needs to put back into the rules.

The problem is, they seem to sometimes forget that new people are still picking up the game and assume those reading the FAQ and rules already have a good grasp of the basics.

I'm interested to hear what the official response is, I have a feeling that this might be an over looked omission by FFG just based on the 'common knowledge' that templates aren't to be used outside of movement.

Being able to measure whether you will clip an asteroid or a ship before dialing in is a huge advantage and takes a lot of skill out of the game. This is coming from someone who just played their first four games ever in a tournament this weekend. This would have helped me avoid a TON of mistakes, but NOT being able to measure actually helped me become a better player.

It's nothing more than an error of omission that can be easily fixed and my only agenda is to get FFG to fix it so the rules inform the players and not the other way around.

Derp.

3 hours ago, Slugrage said:

Page 5 of the fancy Tournament Rules
Tournament Play
Game Setup

So my read on it is that you still certainly can use the rulers and templates, but they must remain within Range 1 of your setup edge.

The discussion isn't about setup. It's about using templates to measure stuff while planning maneuvers.

7 hours ago, FrogTrigger said:

I'm interested to hear what the official response is, I have a feeling that this might be an over looked omission by FFG just based on the 'common knowledge' that templates aren't to be used outside of movement.

Being able to measure whether you will clip an asteroid or a ship before dialing in is a huge advantage and takes a lot of skill out of the game. This is coming from someone who just played their first four games ever in a tournament this weekend. This would have helped me avoid a TON of mistakes, but NOT being able to measure actually helped me become a better player.

There is definitely a difference in a new player and an experienced player in terms of judging movements. I played in a tournament this weekend. One of my opponents was relatively new and in the second round of movement put his ship on an an asteroid. In the same game, I made some moves where I cleared a block by only a mm or two. You definitely get a feel for where you will end up, but it does take some time to judge it properly.

Has it been officially stated that the first starter set's rules are superseded by the newer set's? Or is it just where there is a conflict? Not sure it helps, but if the first sets rules are still in play unless contradicted by the new set and the FAQ/Tourney rules, then that would be a way to keep it all kosher.

The original core set and the newer TFA core set are both still available and still marketed as a standalone game, but I don't think there's anything in the TFA set the states it supercedes the original set.

2 hours ago, Parravon said:

The original core set and the newer TFA core set are both still available and still marketed as a standalone game, but I don't think there's anything in the TFA set the states it supercedes the original set.

The rules on manoeuvre timing, as noted above. Plus a number of others.

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

The rules on manoeuvre timing, as noted above. Plus a number of others.

No, I meant as a whole. There are more than a few rules that were changed and tweaked, but there's nothing in the TFA set that states the original rulebook is now entirely replaced or redundant.

Oh i see.

No, i don't think there is. The stuff online is pretty clear that the blue book is the current one, but the actual game box isn't. I don't see a huge issue there.

If FFG said that the rule book from the red core was officially outdated, they'd have trouble selling the red core boxes. Better to leave it somewhat nebulous.

Am I crazy or did the Tourney rules used to contain an entire section on "pre-measuring" using hands etc. I'm not sure if I am just making that up. Needs to be clarified somewhere.

Adaptive Ailerons sounds like it needs an FAQ as well. Have to declare a direction before placing the template.

9 hours ago, Lobokai said:

Has it been officially stated that the first starter set's rules are superseded by the newer set's? Or is it just where there is a conflict? Not sure it helps, but if the first sets rules are still in play unless contradicted by the new set and the FAQ/Tourney rules, then that would be a way to keep it all kosher.

Well the Tournament Regulations list the Rules Reference and FAQ as the source of the game rules for X-Wing tournaments, and don't mention the rules booklet from the original Core Set.

I'd like to see that section on using hands on the mat to estimate distances and maneuvers. Had a fella start placing his fingers in front of his ship while doing it's dial.

I was like WTF? But I let it go. I couldn't make sense of it and if it's legal.

8 hours ago, Velvetelvis said:

I'd like to see that section on using hands on the mat to estimate distances and maneuvers. Had a fella start placing his fingers in front of his ship while doing it's dial.

I was like WTF? But I let it go. I couldn't make sense of it and if it's legal.

I've had same issues. A clear rule stating this is/is not allowed would be very helpful. Personally I think its BS and would call out somebody doing it, but its nice to point to actual text when you assert someone cannot do a thing.

On 3/17/2017 at 11:17 AM, BlodVargarna said:

I've had same issues. A clear rule stating this is/is not allowed would be very helpful. Personally I think its BS and would call out somebody doing it, but its nice to point to actual text when you assert someone cannot do a thing.

The only text against that is from the original core set rule book that states you need to "estimate movements in your head" during the planning phase.

21 hours ago, Klutz said:

The only text against that is from the original core set rule book that states you need to "estimate movements in your head" during the planning phase.

Yeah, the Dev's have said that it's not allowed, but it's never made into a FAQ that I know of. It would be nice if they actually spelled it, because telling someone they can't do that and the best you can come up with is "Well I read it on the message boards" just isn't likely to get you very far.