Can someone tell me where FFG moved this rule to? It used to be on page 6 of the old rule book but I can't find it anywhere in the Learn to play, reference guide, Tournament rules, or FAQ. Need to know for a tournament, thanks.

I can't find it either.

Yeah, I'm at a loss, I searched for "template", "maneuver", "measure", and even "test" in the Rules Reference , Learn to Play , FAQ , and Tournament Regulations , I couldn't find it anywhere!

So apparently we can premeasure all our maneuvers now? Game sure has changed.

Question submitted to FFG.

Basic rules followed properly mean that your templates should start the game outside the play area, you only bring them onto the play area when executing a maneuver/boost/BR/ or action manuever, and you should be returning your templates to the side of the board after every move.

There doesn't need to be a rule explicitly forbidding pre-measuring. If you want to pre-measure, then you need to find a rule that overrides these basics and allows you to bring templates onto the mat outside of the normal maneuver/boost/barrel roll instances.
Such a rule does not exist.

Setup (P16 Learn to Play, P17 Rules Ref) determines that templates begin outside the play area:
7. Prepare Other Components: Shuffle the Damage deck and place it facedown outside the play area within reach of both players along with the maneuver templates, dice, range ruler, and the remaining tokens.

Every Maneuver (P4, Rules Reference)
c. Clean Up: Return the maneuver template to the pile of maneuver templates. Place the revealed dial outside the play area next to the ship’s Ship card.

Barrel Rolls (P6, Rules Reference)
• When a player declares a barrel roll action for his ship, he must also declare whether the ship is barrel rolling to the left or to the right before placing the maneuver template on the play area.

The implication of a rule is not the same thing as a rule. Particularly in a case where the rule was explicit, and now it isn't. If a rule existed in a previous version of the rules, and it gets omitted from the most current version, then the rule doesn't exist.

@McLaine I appreciate your effort, but it isn't enough. I don't want to, but I could fly a Space Cow through the holes in your argument (measuring first to make sure I don't bump.) Here's a breakdown:

1. Nothing in the rules for Setup states you can't put templates into the play area after Setup.

2. The Clean Up substep is specific to the Activation Phase. It has no impact on the Planning Phase.

3. Barrel Roll has nothing to do with Planning Phase. Furthermore, The only connection between Barrel Roll and maneuvers is the use of a template. The rule for an action cannot set a precedent for maneuvers; apples and oranges.

The idea of measuring during the Planning Phase makes me cringe. I want the old rule reinstated, or a new rule in uncomprimising terms. The best solution is an errata for Planning Phase in the Rules Reference. This is necessary to eliminate the chance of any player making a case for taking the skill out of maneuvering.

1) Equally, nothing says you can. The only time you are explicitly told you can is when making a manuever, boost, br, or action maneuver.

2) Nothing in the planning phase explicitly tells you you can put templates on the mat in this phase. Follow the rules explicitly. Your argument 'nothing says you can't' is the one that is at fault for implication.

3) Never said it did. I was pointing out all the places in the rules that explicitly say you 'can' put templates on the mat.

It was covered in the first edition of the rules, but seems to have been omitted in the TFA edition.

Quote

Original Rulebook, Planning, page 6

During the Planning phase, players cannot use maneuver templates in order to “test” where ships will end up. Instead, they must plan their maneuvers by estimating their ships’ movement in their heads.

Do the things the rules say you can do. Don't do the things the rules don't day you can't do. Leave thaat Space Cow at home because you are wrong. Examples:

- Even when the old rule, nothing says i cant use the maneuver templates at the End Phase of the previous turn.

- Nowhere in the rules is anything that forbids me to add a new ship at the end of round 3, so that means i can.

Let me be clear, especially to @McLaine , and @Willy Jarque . I agree with you in principle. My primary objective here is pointing out the folly in deleting a very important rule. Some player somewhere will make arguments like the ones I made; except instead of doing it to make a point, they will be doing it to make the game easier for themselves. The worst part is some TO somewhere will be weak enough to succumb to those arguments.

16 hours ago, Tvboy said:

Can someone tell me where FFG moved this rule to? It used to be on page 6 of the old rule book but I can't find it anywhere in the Learn to play, reference guide, Tournament rules, or FAQ. Need to know for a tournament, thanks.

I looked and just like everybody else, this is not spelled out in the new rules or FAQ. The only place I found it referenced was on page 6 of the Core Rulebook.

One thing to bear in mind is that the original Core Set is still sold and valid for use. Changes to any rules are addressed in the new rule books and FAQ. Since this particular guideline is not included in the new rules or FAQ, the thought I have is that there is nothing there to indicate that it should be disregarded or ignored. There may be some argument to that point, but I think you also have to consider the practical application in tournaments. If you go to any tournament run by experienced players, I think you will find pre-measuring is not allowed.

I am also wondering why you "Need to know for a tournament"?

Are you going to be the TO? If that is the case, then you would be the one to make the decision for a ruling.

If you asking to see if you will be allowed to pre-measure, then the final decision would be one you could clarify with the TO. I would expect you will get a flat "NO" but the TO could make a decision otherwise.

10 hours ago, jmswood said:

3. Barrel Roll has nothing to do with Planning Phase. Furthermore, The only connection between Barrel Roll and maneuvers is the use of a template. The rule for an action cannot set a precedent for maneuvers; apples and oranges.

This is not absolutely true anymore.

An example is placing A-wing Jake Farrell after a ship with Hyperwave Comm Scanner.

Jake can get assigned a focus and can perform a free boost or barrel roll.

This would all happen in the planning phase.

28 minutes ago, USCGrad90 said:

This is not absolutely true anymore.

An example is placing A-wing Jake Farrell after a ship with Hyperwave Comm Scanner.

Jake can get assigned a focus and can perform a free boost or barrel roll.

This would all happen in the planning phase.

Hyperwave Comm Scanner happens during Place Forces, part of Setup, not during the Planning Phase.

12 minutes ago, jmswood said:

Hyperwave Comm Scanner happens during Place Forces, part of Setup, not during the Planning Phase.

True. My bad. Was thinking about old case where a guy planned out his opening moves with templates prior to placing his ships.

7 hours ago, USCGrad90 said:

I looked and just like everybody else, this is not spelled out in the new rules or FAQ. The only place I found it referenced was on page 6 of the Core Rulebook.

One thing to bear in mind is that the original Core Set is still sold and valid for use. Changes to any rules are addressed in the new rule books and FAQ. Since this particular guideline is not included in the new rules or FAQ, the thought I have is that there is nothing there to indicate that it should be disregarded or ignored. There may be some argument to that point, but I think you also have to consider the practical application in tournaments. If you go to any tournament run by experienced players, I think you will find pre-measuring is not allowed.

I am also wondering why you "Need to know for a tournament"?

Are you going to be the TO? If that is the case, then you would be the one to make the decision for a ruling.

If you asking to see if you will be allowed to pre-measure, then the final decision would be one you could clarify with the TO. I would expect you will get a flat "NO" but the TO could make a decision otherwise.

I TO'd a tournament yesterday and we had a brand new player that thought he could use the templates during the planning phase. When I explained that's not allowed, he asked when and how he could use the maneuver templates, and since I didn't want to be one of those ******** TOs that just makes up rules out of thin air, I went to check the four rules documents in this game and found nothing, just a vague rule that symbols on the maneuver dial connect to the templates and how to use the templates to move your ship. It does not specify when you can and cannot use the templates, so FFG basically made me look like a ******** that makes up rules that aren't in the rule book.

I would argue that you are wrong about the old core book being valid for use because FFG does not feature that rule book in the rules documents section of their x-wing website, and I'm pretty sure my core rule book printed in 2012 has a lot of rules in it that have been changed or retired, and FFG doesn't have any kind of up-to-date PDF of that.

Also the argument that "omission = prohibition" does not make sense because then why would FFG spell out a restriction on not being allowed to use the range ruler? That is an explicit prohibition that would not be needed if the "implied prohibition" argument held any water.

edit: I don't want to use maneuver templates whenever we want, I want FFG to address this asap and fix the rules so that we're all playing the game correctly. This is a way bigger problem for new players than any single card errata.

Perhaps 12 years ago a God Level Troll started a topic in one Advanced Squad Leader forum. In the rulebook (and it is a BIG rulebook) it was nor explicited that the game is based on D6 dices. The Basic Set (Beyond Valor) includes 4d6. No doubt about D6.

That guy argued that you can play ASL with D4s.

After many, many hundreds of posts some wise words from a game developer. "Sometimes the most obvious things are hard to rule. Do not feed the Trolls". And closed.

8 minutes ago, Hexdot said:

Perhaps 12 years ago a God Level Troll started a topic in one Advanced Squad Leader forum. In the rulebook (and it is a BIG rulebook) it was nor explicited that the game is based on D6 dices. The Basic Set (Beyond Valor) includes 4d6. No doubt about D6.

That guy argued that you can play ASL with D4s.

After many, many hundreds of posts some wise words from a game developer. "Sometimes the most obvious things are hard to rule. Do not feed the Trolls". And closed.

This problem was brought to my attention by a new player who correctly pointed out that there was no explicit rule on when you can use the maneuver templates. I guess trying to make the rules easier for new players to understand makes me a troll?

No. Indeed I think this is one interesting post. Sometimes people that call themselves "players" try to twist the foundations of the rulebook in ways never imagined by the designers.

If one player insists in pre measuring... look for another player.

Curious this omission. No offence intended.

Luckily I was the TO and the new player was acting in good faith and just wanted to learn and improve, so he accepted the rule as we explained it an carried on, but for the next 20 minutes I was scratching my head searching through FFG pdfs because he had really good questions on exactly when the templates could be used and if he could even pick them up to reference them or if they just had to stay outside of the play area or if they couldn't even be touched at all, and I as a TO had no way of answering those questions, and as a TO and I'm sure for a new player, that is not a good feeling.

The game design is clearly predicated around the idea of planning your moves entirely in secret.

I can't imagine why anyone would even think you can use the templates. Sitting across the other side of the table; I would be able see you trying out various templates... And after you're done; based on what you experimented with I'd probably have a good idea of what you're doing (or at least a range of likely possibilities).

3 hours ago, Dr Zoidberg said:

The game design is clearly predicated around the idea of planning your moves entirely in secret.

I can't imagine why anyone would even think you can use the templates. Sitting across the other side of the table; I would be able see you trying out various templates... And after you're done; based on what you experimented with I'd probably have a good idea of what you're doing (or at least a range of likely possibilities).

Then the good players start playing mind games by measuring out stuff, but not what they actually plan to do. Or people slow play by premeasyring every possible move

This has been a big discussion in my group. The rules do state that in the planning phase, you must choose your move in secret. It can be argued that using a template is not doing it in "secret," but here is where he got stuck.... A daptive Ailerons. We had a player put his template down but changed his mind to a different barring before moving his ship. We went through the entire rule book, FAQ, etc. and nothing says you cant do this. Has anyone run into this before? The best someone could come up with is measuring range, but you're not checking range with Adaptive Ailerons. Thoughts?

Just now, shaunmerritt said:

This has been a big discussion in my group. The rules do state that in the planning phase, you must choose your move in secret. It can be argued that using a template is not doing it in "secret," but here is where he got stuck.... A daptive Ailerons. We had a player put his template down but changed his mind to a different barring before moving his ship. We went through the entire rule book, FAQ, etc. and nothing says you cant do this. Has anyone run into this before? The best someone could come up with is measuring range, but you're not checking range with Adaptive Ailerons. Thoughts?

For ailerons I'd use the precedent of boost and barrel roll. Once you put down the template you're locked into that option.

well here is the thing... you are supposed to declare you are doing a boost first. AA doesn't require that because you MUST do it and without the "pre-measure" wording, we could not find a section/rule that says you cant pre-measure with AA. its a one of kind upgrade. FFG did say in the previews that the card forces you to take the "equivalent" of a boost action, but that's not in the rule book and cannot be enforced. I was the TO and it was not a fun ruling.