It seems like some of the mechanisms in the rules that allow for disarming may be a little too powerful in melee combat.

A single triumph or three advantage (or just two advantage if you're a Jedi with the Sum Djem talent) allows you to force an opponent to drop a weapon. If you've saved a maneuver, you can then pick up the weapon and voila, the battle is over.

Seems like this is a place where GM discretion needs to come in. Against Nemeses, the default should probably be "No, you may not disarm this opponent, even if you have the advantage to spend on it," except in cases where that would help rather than hinder the story.

That's nothing, imagine a force user with move, the "pull from opponents grasp" upgrade, multiple ranks of magnitude and a good force rating. There's a whole squad of stormtroopers coming at you? Cute, what're they gonna do without their rifles?

Seriously though, for nemeses, always let them have a backup weapon. Also, in Force and Destiny there's a neat little talent called Resist Disarm, which let's a character suffer 2 strain to not lose his weapon, and if I remember correctly, there's some attachement that makes recovering a dropped weapon an incidental. The individual might also have multiple ranks in brawl, just in case.

9 minutes ago, Klort said:

That's nothing, imagine a force user with move, the "pull from opponents grasp" upgrade, multiple ranks of magnitude and a good force rating. There's a whole squad of stormtroopers coming at you? Cute, what're they gonna do without their rifles?

Yeah, at least with Move disarm the target gets to resist the Discipline roll, though.

26 minutes ago, Klort said:

That's nothing, imagine a force user with move, the "pull from opponents grasp" upgrade, multiple ranks of magnitude and a good force rating. There's a whole squad of stormtroopers coming at you? Cute, what're they gonna do without their rifles?

Seriously though, for nemeses, always let them have a backup weapon. Also, in Force and Destiny there's a neat little talent called Resist Disarm, which let's a character suffer 2 strain to not lose his weapon, and if I remember correctly, there's some attachement that makes recovering a dropped weapon an incidental. The individual might also have multiple ranks in brawl, just in case.

With that much exp, it would be the exact same thing that would happen if they got to keep all their weapons. That is, nothing at all

1 hour ago, DaverWattra said:

It seems like some of the mechanisms in the rules that allow for disarming may be a little too powerful in melee combat.

A single triumph or three advantage (or just two advantage if you're a Jedi with the Sum Djem talent) allows you to force an opponent to drop a weapon. If you've saved a maneuver, you can then pick up the weapon and voila, the battle is over.

Seems like this is a place where GM discretion needs to come in. Against Nemeses, the default should probably be "No, you may not disarm this opponent, even if you have the advantage to spend on it," except in cases where that would help rather than hinder the story.

After the first time that happens, do 'The weapon explodes: 12 damage', or 'he pulls another blaster and shoots you', or 'he jumps down a concealed trap door', or 'his buddy Darth Vader comes out of the back room'

Yeah, its powerful. Plan for it

1 minute ago, korjik said:

After the first time that happens, do 'The weapon explodes: 12 damage', or 'he pulls another blaster and shoots you', or 'he jumps down a concealed trap door', or 'his buddy Darth Vader comes out of the back room'

None of these options have that Star Wars-y atmosphere, though.

I would require a maneuver to disengage before you engaged with a weapon to pick it up. Your opponent doesn't just stand still while you bend over to pick up his weapon.

@korjik might be taking things a little too far, though the idea is sound enough - disarming your opponent is powerful as you showed, but punishing players for using a good tactic by a grenade to the face might be a little much.

It's a lot harder to disarm a droid when his gun is built into his chassis, and even if you can rip a bunch of E-11s from a squad of troopers they still might have grenades or other tools. Backup weapons are a good go-to for lesser enemies as they still pose a threat while being weakened. Rival and Nemesis level enemies could reasonably have secondary weapons, gadgets, or even minions at their disposal as well so there are more options to consider to even the odds. As you said, of course, this is in melee combat! It's a little hard to knock the gun out of someone's hands if they're up on a ledge and pelting you with shots, so you can play with the idea of verticality or distance as well.

Yes, disarming enemies is a really great tactic but there are ways to push back a little so it does not become the default. You can't really disarm an Acklay (unless you de-arm it) can you? What about a tank? Or a minefield?

Hmm...or come to think of it, for ease of use, I would actually probably require an action to be spent to pick up a weapon, if you're trying to dive around your opponent to ****** it up. Coordination would be a great skill for it. This is something we see in movies all the time: one duelist disarms the other, and the sword goes flying. The disarming duelist doesn't just saunter over to pick up the weapon. They tussle for a bit, and then one of them will break away, do a roll, and then come up with the weapon in hand.

Edit, lol, *s n a t c h

51 minutes ago, RixxyAGoGo said:

@korjik might be taking things a little too far, though the idea is sound enough - disarming your opponent is powerful as you showed, but punishing players for using a good tactic by a grenade to the face might be a little much.

It's a lot harder to disarm a droid when his gun is built into his chassis, and even if you can rip a bunch of E-11s from a squad of troopers they still might have grenades or other tools. Backup weapons are a good go-to for lesser enemies as they still pose a threat while being weakened. Rival and Nemesis level enemies could reasonably have secondary weapons, gadgets, or even minions at their disposal as well so there are more options to consider to even the odds. As you said, of course, this is in melee combat! It's a little hard to knock the gun out of someone's hands if they're up on a ledge and pelting you with shots, so you can play with the idea of verticality or distance as well.

Yes, disarming enemies is a really great tactic but there are ways to push back a little so it does not become the default. You can't really disarm an Acklay (unless you de-arm it) can you? What about a tank? Or a minefield?

Notice that I said 'After the first time'. If the players use it as a tactic, then smart bad guys should learn. Heck, smart bad guys should start doing it to the players

1 hour ago, awayputurwpn said:

Hmm...or come to think of it, for ease of use, I would actually probably require an action to be spent to pick up a weapon, if you're trying to dive around your opponent to ****** it up. Coordination would be a great skill for it. This is something we see in movies all the time: one duelist disarms the other, and the sword goes flying. The disarming duelist doesn't just saunter over to pick up the weapon. They tussle for a bit, and then one of them will break away, do a roll, and then come up with the weapon in hand.

Edit, lol, *s n a t c h

Keep in mind that Sum Djem not only disarms the opponent but also moves the weapon to anywhere within "Short" range of the target. Considering that talent is a bottom tier expensive talent I think it's the intended way to replicate that particular movie trope.

whatever a normal Disarm does it should not be better than Sum Djem, it probably shouldn't even be close. I think the Devs would say that normal Disarm puts the weapon at your feet and requires a Manoeuvre to pick up.

Sum Djem would require a Disengage, Engage then pick up (I may allow a coordination check to Engage with and pick up in a single action)

You disarm your opponent and pick up his weapon. Okay, but what stops him from doing the same right back. I've seen action movies where a couple of combatants go back and forth over a weapon, so why not?

The weapon doesn't just drop at your feet, you would have to disengage your opponent. Then move to another area within short range to pick it up even if it was only a few feet away, so you do not have enough manoeuvres to do so.

That being said backup weapons or having a reasonable brawl skill is the answer , most melee nemesis should also be able to punch in the face just as well. Take maurauders who get to add feral strength as damage to both melee and brawl, and frenzied attack to either kind of check. Nemesis would likely have access to either or both these talents (works better than giving them an uber weapon that will end up in the players pockets). Also nemesis shouldn't be fighting solo they should be mixing it up with groups of minions and also start at ranged distance using ranged weapons. The combat shouldn't just start , but should end at engaged range, and if the nemesis is the last man standing and gets disarmed at the end of said combat, then don't cheat the players out of their victory and either have them surrender or fight to the death without their weapon , whichever is narratively appropriate, if they are disarmed at the start of the combat, have a mook throw them a replacement.

Also remember that if a tactic is effective for players it is also effective for npc's

I retract my statement.

1 minute ago, SFC Snuffy said:

I don't think it's unreasonable to allow ranks of Adversary to increase the amount of Advantage necessary for a disarm. If the PCs are particularly proficient, I might even go two-for-one, i.e. a two-Advantage increase for each rank of Adversary.

Adversary upgrades the pool making disarming harder by negating more Advantages on rolls. There's no reason it should then make the disarm cost more Advantages on top of that.

4 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Adversary upgrades the pool making disarming harder by negating more Advantages on rolls. There's no reason it should then make the disarm cost more Advantages on top of that.

Sure, I get that, but offense outstrips defense in this system in almost any measure. The flat DC of melee combat means that it's relatively easy to generate Advantage for even low-to-moderately experienced PCs, even against a couple of ranks of Adversary.

I haven't had this situation come up, and my PCs aren't the types to abuse it (I don't think). In a situation where the PCs were spending all of their Advantage to disarm opponents, all of the time, I think an "Adversary upgrade" would be an easy method of dissuasion without bending things too far out of shape. It's probably better to just talk to them about it.

2 hours ago, SFC Snuffy said:

Sure, I get that, but offense outstrips defense in this system in almost any measure. The flat DC of melee combat means that it's relatively easy to generate Advantage for even low-to-moderately experienced PCs, even against a couple of ranks of Adversary.

I haven't had this situation come up, and my PCs aren't the types to abuse it (I don't think). In a situation where the PCs were spending all of their Advantage to disarm opponents, all of the time, I think an "Adversary upgrade" would be an easy method of dissuasion without bending things too far out of shape. It's probably better to just talk to them about it.

Give your adversaries proper defense values, spend advantages to make checks harder and disarming becomes a lot harder and what is more important, usually you are happy if someone spends three advantages on a disarm instead of critting once, twice or even three times.

Two Maneuvers to pick up a dropped weapon. 1 to move to another location within the range band, another to pick up the weapon. So someone who wants to use that option will have to be forgoing using their Maneuvers for anything else in their turn.

I'd only have someone need to spend an additional maneuver to go after a weapon if I had Threats to spend from the roll. Otherwise I don't see anything in the rules justifying it. The advantage table says the weapon is dropped, not that it goes flying through the air.

A maneuver to disengage , a maneuver to get to another location , and a gms call if you need an action or a a maneuver to pick up the weapon assuming you have a spare hand, because you may need to stow a weapon, esp as most melee are two handed, unless you have quick draw. The movement is covered under the move maneuver description. Only thing is the nemesis has the same to go through to recover the weapon.

So you are going through an entire turn just to get your opponents weapon and more if either the PCs own or NPCs own is a two hander since you have another maneuver to draw or put away a weapon, all while your opponent/oppoents are beating down on you, and if you fail to recover the weapon the Nemisis may engage you again making you have to try again next turn, th Nemesis may also have the benefit of two turns per round , making it easier to recover the weapon for them.

With regards to adversary and the ease of which offense outstrips defense try this for a little test, take the dice app or your dice and roll 3 yellow 1 green against 2 red 1 purple and 1 black (which is not a bad pool for the offense) and see how often you roll 2 advantage. I just did and got 2 out of 10 , technically assuming the GM adds more black die due to environmental factors (no dramatic melee should occur on flat ground with no other factors) then advantage is less likely. (Or if you go RAW with defensive stacking which allows defensive on a weapon to stack with armor, rather than the dev response that they dont stack and that is under review, if you do then 3 or 4 black die will be normal and black die are stacked toward rolling threat)

This was assuming a brawn 3 / melee 4 PC against a single adversay 2 NPC with a defensive talent at rank 1, and 1 melee defense through weapon or armor. Most rolls didnt even get advantage, and the first roll was a bit of a freak and got 1 success 4 advantage, the other missed but got 2 advantage. One roll had a triumph (but missed) and one got 2 triumph (which could be used to bust the weapon entirley), but it also missed.

If the PC is better than that then the NPC should similarly be better, or the combat occurs in a trickier place etc.

Given that you don't need to cause damage to disarm as far as I can see, costing any more than a manoeuvre to pick up again would seem high. Leave that to the talents that throw it further

Regardless of where it lands so you have to at least disengage to safely pick up assuming its landed at your location. It is your gms call if you need another to pick it up, assuming you have the hands to do so. Once you do so though you may not be able to fight because you may be holding 2 two handed weapons in each hand , the additional weight may also cause setback as well depending what the pc is aleady carrying. All of these factors have to be looked at.

The very factor of the pc disengaging actually makes it easier for the npc to run away and leaving the PC without the ability to attack back since they are holding a melee weapon (or 2) unless they drop said weapon.

Woh woh woh on punishing players here. Yes disarming is really good, it's also really good in real life. However i would urge GMs to give NPCs a secondary weapon, such as a combat knife, or even just brawling with a decent brawn as opposed to trying to "punish players" because that leads to bad feels and adversarial GMing.

As far as the disarm -> take their weapon. I really like using threats to make the weapon go flying off into specifically short range. That means it's a maneuver to move to short, then a maneuver to pick it up. Just remember that is the same for the NPC if they want to go get it also.

Overall with how fast paced the combat is, i honestly don't find it a huge problem. Sure it's a good move, and it can be very effective. But auto-fire is also a really good move, and very effective, that doesn't mean you should punish your players for using auto-fire, or any other combat option. Just remember that NPCs have the same options.

I wouldn't make the PC spend a maneuver to disengage the adversary in order to pick up the dropped weapon, because that would mean the NPC would have to do the same if the PC could not pick it up. Thus it could actually make disarming MORE beneficial.

Spend Triumph to Disarm Adversary.
Turn End
Adversary spends maneuver to disengage
Adversary pends Maneuver to pick up dropped weapon
Adversary picks their nose.
Turn End.

I don't have any problem with disarming with RAW. At worst it forces an adversary to waste a maneuver, at best they need to change weapons or change tactics.

18 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

I'd only have someone need to spend an additional maneuver to go after a weapon if I had Threats to spend from the roll. Otherwise I don't see anything in the rules justifying it. The advantage table says the weapon is dropped, not that it goes flying through the air.

It takes a maneuver to draw and ready a weapon on your person. It takes a maneuver to change locations within a range band. If it takes a maneuver to draw a weapon in combat from your holster it sure as hell takes more than 1 to pick something up off the ground. It says dropped, but it doesn't say conveniently within arms reach. You're having to move to where the weapon dropped, doesn't matter if it went "flying", unless it landed in your holster it's not where you're presently in a fist fight so by default it's at a different location even with the range band.

If you were in a fist fight and there was a door ten feet away and you wanted to move to it and open it, that's 2 maneuvers RAW. I see no difference.