36 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

I think some of the responses here are bad first impressions and I have to agree with some of them. Dismissing them is a mistake. Without sitting down and doing some serious theory crafting it's easy to miss something. The cards mentioned may only be good in Epic or one of the evil geniuses that frequent these forums may come up with an off the wall squad that employs some of these cards very effectively. Calling new cards and pilots useless and D.O.A. before they're even released is a little harsh. Besides, no one knows what's coming after the C-ROC. There might be something in the next wave that makes these cards good.

To be fair, I havn't used the term "DOA" (lord knows I loathe the phrase), and I agree that there is likely something in the future that will get some use of the PRS and Arc Caster. At the present, though, neither card seems that it has a place, and certainly not on the Scyk that they are seemingly designed for which is just bad irony. If it wern't for the fact I already considered the M3-A 'fixed', I might have been more annoyed about it, but since the pilots seem to be all useable in their own way (some more than others) that'll do for me - I won't be buying the C-ROC for some time in any case, the fact that there's currently no meta-shattering card we are aware of to be found within just makes that decision easier.

2 hours ago, MalusCalibur said:

It's good to know that you clearly have nothing with which to attempt to refute the points I made, since you've already resorted to this kind of childish snark.

Oh please. Let's not pretend you're somehow above childish snark:

On 3/9/2017 at 4:23 AM, MalusCalibur said:

Absolutely, utterly, laughably not.

Next time, on 'thorough answers to incredibly obvious questions', we ask if the X-Wing is lagging behind the current game.

^Your very first reply to "is Palp worth it." No points to back up your assertion, and a nice condescension burrito dripping with snark.

But in seriousness, somebody actually stating that nobody demanded a scyk fix is legitimately funny to me. You've been a member here for almost 2 years. That is plenty of time to realize that nary a day goes by that one or more "fix the scyk" threads appear on the front page of these forums. You disagreeing with that came across as more of a compulsion to disagree with every single sentence I typed rather than something you actually believe. If it is something you actually believe, do some digging.

As to refuting your points, and those of people who agree with you. I've done that. I've stated my point of view, you've stated yours. Just because I choose not to go in yet another circle doesn't mean I have nothing left. You can accept my/our points or not, but that doesn't mean points aren't being made.

59 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Oh please. Let's not pretend you're somehow above childish snark:

^Your very first reply to "is Palp worth it." No points to back up your assertion, and a nice condescension burrito dripping with snark.

Ah, so you've been doing a bit of stalking. Classy.

As for the Palpatine thread, I had anticipated far more agreement and buying into the humour of it but was left sadly disappointed. In any case, what happened in a different thread entirely unrelated to this one has no bearing on the discussion here, especially since I have not repeated behaviour of that nature within this discussion. And even if you can't disassociate the two, surely you'd not want to sink to my level by delivering the same snark?

59 minutes ago, Sekac said:

But in seriousness, somebody actually stating that nobody demanded a scyk fix is legitimately funny to me. You've been a member here for almost 2 years. That is plenty of time to realize that nary a day goes by that one or more "fix the scyk" threads appear on the front page of these forums. You disagreeing with that came across as more of a compulsion to disagree with every single sentence I typed rather than something you actually believe. If it is something you actually believe, do some digging.

All I've ever recalled with regards to the Scyk is a lot of fan-made ideas to sort it out, a lot of lamenting how the Heavy Scyk title wasn't 0pts (because that would have been the ideal from the beginning), and a lot of speculating as to when/how/if the fix would come. Very few demands around - certainly not to the degree that those calling for bans/nerfs/whatever get up to. But the central point is that the contents of the C-ROC are not a fix for the Scyk, because it already got one, and so any 'demands' or otherwise to fix it are irrelevant to the discussion.

59 minutes ago, Sekac said:

As to refuting your points, and those of people who agree with you. I've done that. I've stated my point of view, you've stated yours. Just because I choose not to go in yet another circle doesn't mean I have nothing left. You can accept my/our points or not, but that doesn't mean points aren't being made.

Have you? Since my last rebuttal you've gone strangely silent on the actual matter at hand. I've countered every point you've thus far made in favour of the Arc Caster being a worthwhile choice, and so I am waiting for you to prove me wrong by either explaining how I am incorrect in my assessments of its current uses, or providing a new place for it that I havn't considered and/or cannot deny the value of.

Or you could drag up something I said weeks ago in another attempt to discredit me, if you'd prefer to avoid the issue and waste time.

Jeez, here we go again...

Clicking on a different thread on page 1 and reading the 4th comment down is hardly "stalking". 3 days is hardly "weeks". And the behavior between the two threads is remarkably similar. You feel you don't need to try things to dismiss them.

I've made my points, you feel you've countered them to your satisfaction. That's fine, but your counters also conveniently ignore certain truths to maintain their credibility. You talk as if the only time you can use the arc caster is in a trading dice, straight up jousting scenario. You and everyone else knows that there are multiple ways to get into range 1 and only roughly 25% of them result in you being in arc as well. Yet there's no acknowledgement of flanking tactics.

And even if you do end up jousting, trading an 18 point scyk for something worth considerably more can absolutely be worth it. Use a bumpmaster with gonk to deny defensive actions and soak the splash damage if there's no enemies to arc to.

I agree that if you take a situational upgrade and use it poorly, you will end up with poor results. But there are things you can do to leverage the the advantages of a 2 point upgrade with this much potential for damage. Even the fact that it is on the table will force your opponent to play differently. They can't just ignore the scyk anymore, it must be dealt with before it's allowed pile on damage. That, in turn, takes the attention off the rest off your list, which is a very good thing.

^Are you done, ladies?

I don't know why you are arguing and i don't understand who is even arguing for what!

No, don't enlighten me please. It's fine as it is!

9 hours ago, Sekac said:

You talk as if the only time you can use the arc caster is in a trading dice, straight up jousting scenario. You and everyone else knows that there are multiple ways to get into range 1 and only roughly 25% of them result in you being in arc as well. Yet there's no acknowledgement of flanking tactics.

All I've done is point out that it's a Range 1 weapon and therefore a lot more limited than almost every other cannon in the number of opportunities you will have to use it. If one is willing to discount the shots that result in the Scyk damaging itself as well, that's even fewer. At that point why have you not taken a Mangler Cannon or Heavy Laser Cannon, and got consistent use out of the points spent, rather than banked on something so situational and potentially suicidal (both from the self damage if it applies, and from the shots back)? What does the Arc Caster truly offer over those other choices other than being cheaper?

I'm not sure where that '25% of ways to get into Range 1 are in arc' statistic has come from. And flanking tactics are all fine, but there are still plenty of turrets in the game that would love a fragile Scyk to get in Range 1 of them, as well as auxillary arcs that cover a great deal of table space - it's rarely so simple as just 'flanking'.

9 hours ago, Sekac said:

And even if you do end up jousting, trading an 18 point scyk for something worth considerably more can absolutely be worth it.

How will you trade anything when you move and shoot at PS2? That leaves an awful lot of the most common pilots shooting before the Scyk, or reacting to it's position and dodging the Range 1 band. And let's not forget the added bonus Predator would get against them.

9 hours ago, Sekac said:

I agree that if you take a situational upgrade and use it poorly, you will end up with poor results. But there are things you can do to leverage the the advantages of a 2 point upgrade with this much potential for damage. Even the fact that it is on the table will force your opponent to play differently. They can't just ignore the scyk anymore, it must be dealt with before it's allowed pile on damage. That, in turn, takes the attention off the rest off your list, which is a very good thing.

But you already can't ignore a Scyk, if it has almost any other cannon - and in fact you will ignore an Arc Caster-equipped Scyk more because the majority of the game it will be throwing it's 2 dice primary.

How many of these 18pt Arc Caster Sycks would it take to match ones with Heavy Laser Cannons (if four dice shots is what you want - better ones since they operate at the ranges Scyks thrive at already) or Manglers (reliable, consistent and threatening [because of the critical] damage), considering you'll likely need to account for a few of those Arc Caster ones dying before they get a chance to utilise the points spent, over the course of a game?

Maybe if you used an absolute swarm of them, but I still don't think you'd get enough damage out of them to be worth it.

I don't know. Maybe if swarms make their (third) predicted comeback, then having that kind of splash damage potential at that cost will be worth it. As it stands, though, splash damage has not been appealing enough a feature for Ruthlessness or Assault Missiles to make common appearences for a very long time.

On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 6:42 PM, MalusCalibur said:

Can't say I agree about PRS - seems almost entirely certain that the ion token you receive guarantees you'll lose the shield (and probably more) again the following round. The only ship I can see taking it is the HWK, and I wouldn't even put it there since shield regen is hardly going to help them in their task or realistically provide any longer survivability since they tend to go from full HP to 'danger zone' very quickly (likewise why Gonk is such a terrible idea on them).

Genesis Red and Quinn Jast look to be good, Inaldra is good for a cheap Crack Shot or Mindlink carrier (her ability is awful), and Sunny is hilarious fun and easy to drop into a list.

Arc Caster has far too many limitations on its use to be worthwhile - a 4 dice shot is not so special as to require so many hoops to be jumped through to use it. Ironically, the best place for it would have been a TIE/D Defender, but that's been specifically locked out so apparently FFG knows better on that one.

Biggs and friends don't like the arc caster

On 3/12/2017 at 10:19 AM, Stoneface said:

I think some of the responses here are bad first impressions and I have to agree with some of them. Dismissing them is a mistake. Without sitting down and doing some serious theory crafting it's easy to miss something. The cards mentioned may only be good in Epic or one of the evil geniuses that frequent these forums may come up with an off the wall squad that employs some of these cards very effectively. Calling new cards and pilots useless and D.O.A. before they're even released is a little harsh. Besides, no one knows what's coming after the C-ROC. There might be something in the next wave that makes these cards good.

I think this is a good post and one people should consider.

The Arc Caster in today's tournament meta where most lists are only 3 ships does seem weak, but as soon as you look at it outside of those parameters, it's not a bad ship. To consider it for Epic play is just one example of how it could turn into a great Cannon. As soon as you have numerous enemy around you, the splash damage becomes more viable. Also, you don't HAVE to fire it when at R1, much like you don't have to use PTL on Soontir Fel every chance you get. There are strategic times to use it...and not use it.

I also think the Arc Caster can be a great ship on the Scyk. You don't have to go headlong rushing in to be at R1 to get the shot. Just take a little bit of time to come in on the flanks and try to get at R1 without being in the main firing arc. Being smart with a weapon is the trick to getting good with it. Just don't be an idiot with the Arc Caster and I'm sure it will do well for you. Even if you don't fire it much, you are still spending 2 pts for Heavy Scyk title, which is a cheaper version of Hull Upgrade. 2 pts for the Cannon means you have the option to inflict 4 red dice on someone at R1.

Someone said that 4 red dice weren't that big a deal (or something close?) and I am a bit surprised by that. You can get a cheap 18 pt ship that can fire out 4 red dice and that's not a big deal? I don't know. It's not OP broken, but that's pretty darn cool, especially in games like Epic or with 200 pts or so. Maybe not high table at Worlds, but I think that the Arc Caster doesn't really need to be good for 100/6.

Dismissing Pulse Ray Shield is also a bit silly. You can pick when you use it. Often times, if you are at R1 of someone, the next turn is really spent re positioning to get shots. Yes, Defenders are different, but a lot of other ships can't really turn around so easily. Picking when you can do an Ionization on yourself at a smart time is something that's not incredibly impossible to do or always leave you open to be crushed. Do it at the wrong time, yeah, it's bad. Be smart about it and it might not be a big deal. Or you can set a trap for your opponent whom might jump at the chance. Since you get your action when done, you can always try to reposition yourself, too. Or maybe you have Mindlink and can also do an Evade. Maybe it's not such a terrible thing to do.

There is also the thought at ionizing yourself even if you don't have to. One complaint on the HLC Scyk was that it didn't have a 1 forward to sit and blast away at the enemy. Common thought is that you can always ionize yourself, even if you aren't damaged. So, the PRS allows you to take a 1 forward if you want to, even if your dial doesn't have it.

49 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I think this is a good post and one people should consider.

The Arc Caster in today's tournament meta where most lists are only 3 ships does seem weak, but as soon as you look at it outside of those parameters, it's not a bad ship. To consider it for Epic play is just one example of how it could turn into a great Cannon. As soon as you have numerous enemy around you, the splash damage becomes more viable. Also, you don't HAVE to fire it when at R1, much like you don't have to use PTL on Soontir Fel every chance you get. There are strategic times to use it...and not use it.

I also think the Arc Caster can be a great ship on the Scyk. You don't have to go headlong rushing in to be at R1 to get the shot. Just take a little bit of time to come in on the flanks and try to get at R1 without being in the main firing arc. Being smart with a weapon is the trick to getting good with it. Just don't be an idiot with the Arc Caster and I'm sure it will do well for you. Even if you don't fire it much, you are still spending 2 pts for Heavy Scyk title, which is a cheaper version of Hull Upgrade. 2 pts for the Cannon means you have the option to inflict 4 red dice on someone at R1.

Someone said that 4 red dice weren't that big a deal (or something close?) and I am a bit surprised by that. You can get a cheap 18 pt ship that can fire out 4 red dice and that's not a big deal? I don't know. It's not OP broken, but that's pretty darn cool, especially in games like Epic or with 200 pts or so. Maybe not high table at Worlds, but I think that the Arc Caster doesn't really need to be good for 100/6.

Dismissing Pulse Ray Shield is also a bit silly. You can pick when you use it. Often times, if you are at R1 of someone, the next turn is really spent re positioning to get shots. Yes, Defenders are different, but a lot of other ships can't really turn around so easily. Picking when you can do an Ionization on yourself at a smart time is something that's not incredibly impossible to do or always leave you open to be crushed. Do it at the wrong time, yeah, it's bad. Be smart about it and it might not be a big deal. Or you can set a trap for your opponent whom might jump at the chance. Since you get your action when done, you can always try to reposition yourself, too. Or maybe you have Mindlink and can also do an Evade. Maybe it's not such a terrible thing to do.

There is also the thought at ionizing yourself even if you don't have to. One complaint on the HLC Scyk was that it didn't have a 1 forward to sit and blast away at the enemy. Common thought is that you can always ionize yourself, even if you aren't damaged. So, the PRS allows you to take a 1 forward if you want to, even if your dial doesn't have it.

Too often forum readers have a knee-jerk reaction to a card or pilot that they perceive as useless. It's not always the case. Vader, EMP and some other cards that do self harm, at first blush, don't appear to be all that great but as you said, if you know when to use them it makes all the difference.

1 minute ago, Stoneface said:

Too often forum readers have a knee-jerk reaction to a card or pilot that they perceive as useless. It's not always the case. Vader, EMP and some other cards that do self harm, at first blush, don't appear to be all that great but as you said, if you know when to use them it makes all the difference.

I remember when everyone dismissed the Emperor as a card that costs too much and takes up too many slots.

People say it's now utterly useless. I'm still expecting to see it in lists in 6 months....just not EVERY list.

1 hour ago, heychadwick said:

Dismissing Pulse Ray Shield is also a bit silly. You can pick when you use it. Often times, if you are at R1 of someone, the next turn is really spent re positioning to get shots. Yes, Defenders are different, but a lot of other ships can't really turn around so easily. Picking when you can do an Ionization on yourself at a smart time is something that's not incredibly impossible to do or always leave you open to be crushed. Do it at the wrong time, yeah, it's bad. Be smart about it and it might not be a big deal. Or you can set a trap for your opponent whom might jump at the chance. Since you get your action when done, you can always try to reposition yourself, too. Or maybe you have Mindlink and can also do an Evade. Maybe it's not such a terrible thing to do.

I think PRS is especially good on a HaWK with TLT. The downside to ion is you telegraph your maneuver, but it's not like you're going to surprise anyone with those speedy 3 straight or 2 bank maneuvers! Just don't use it if it's gonna give someone a free chance to jump into the range 1 donut hole.

The answer to the splash damage issue is to simply joust against two ships within range 1 of each other (think how Dengar/Tel, Dash/Miranda are often played). Five Cartel Spacers with Arc Casters can target two ships at once and deal up to 25 damage in the first round. And it gets better! Five of those 25 are uncancellable! That's more than enough to finish the game in a single round (basically), if all your ducks align.

Target Tel first, and if the shot hits, Dengar takes 1 auto-damage. Repeat until all Scyks have fired. You end up with a twice-dead Tel (even with Hull upgrade) and at the very least, a shield-less Dengar with four or five Scyks to finish the job in a couple more rounds.

I don't think this is an unlikely scenario at all. Two-ship lists will have to keep away from each other (at least beyond R1) to deal with this new beast.

It's undeniable. Scum is the new king of the swarm.