I've seen a couple people mention getting frustrated when Palpatine "whiffs", but I'm a bit confused by this.

Do you mean that you're declaring Palpatine, but you roll all evades anyways? If that's the case, you shouldn't be annoyed by it because you didn't need his help anyways. You've just lost the ability to use him on offense later. This is exactly where he's lost a bit of value, which I think brings him in line with where he should be.

Or do you mean that you actually whiff and rolled blanks? Palpatine still helps the same way he did before.

7 minutes ago, Criwi Romed said:

I've seen a couple people mention getting frustrated when Palpatine "whiffs", but I'm a bit confused by this.

Do you mean that you're declaring Palpatine, but you roll all evades anyways? If that's the case, you shouldn't be annoyed by it because you didn't need his help anyways. You've just lost the ability to use him on offense later. This is exactly where he's lost a bit of value, which I think brings him in line with where he should be.

Or do you mean that you actually whiff and rolled blanks? Palpatine still helps the same way he did before.

The former. It means now on following rolls you can't use him even if with old Palp you might have. I'd argue that this flexibility was too much before, saving you from situations where you shouldn't get saved, because you were outplayed.

Out rolled. But same thing.

20 minutes ago, Criwi Romed said:

I've seen a couple people mention getting frustrated when Palpatine "whiffs", but I'm a bit confused by this.

Do you mean that you're declaring Palpatine, but you roll all evades anyways? If that's the case, you shouldn't be annoyed by it because you didn't need his help anyways. You've just lost the ability to use him on offense later. This is exactly where he's lost a bit of value, which I think brings him in line with where he should be.

Or do you mean that you actually whiff and rolled blanks? Palpatine still helps the same way he did before.

Both. But the latter against TLT's because they just flat deal a damage and attack again (worthless to get one out extra evade on TLT shots when you roll 3 blanks, palp wasted). Yes, losing offense is pretty big nerf on Palp in this case because if you were using your shuttle as the 3rd attacker in your list (like you should) then your offense goes way up when it gets to the shuttle to fire. Very rarely did I not need palp before (whiff), now its just more often. Not like this is bad, just different in how you fly/use him.

2 hours ago, Velvetelvis said:

Out rolled. But same thing.

No, specificaly not. To have your high value ace take more than two shots in one round is having made a mistake. One that can be avoided with relative ease given all the movement tools at their disposal (note that this observation excludes turrets, which have problems of their own). Palp helped to carry through that, which was key to making him so problematic.

3 hours ago, Criwi Romed said:

I've seen a couple people mention getting frustrated when Palpatine "whiffs", but I'm a bit confused by this.

Do you mean that you're declaring Palpatine, but you roll all evades anyways? If that's the case, you shouldn't be annoyed by it because you didn't need his help anyways. You've just lost the ability to use him on offense later. This is exactly where he's lost a bit of value, which I think brings him in line with where he should be.

Or do you mean that you actually whiff and rolled blanks? Palpatine still helps the same way he did before.

Lets say you have a range one shot against a 3 agi target, with no mods. This is a pretty good time to palp a crit. If you do, then roll 0 hits, you probably just whiffed to the one evade they roll. He also whiffs when you roll poorly against weapons like ion cannon and TLT that just "check" for an effect. Or when you palp against a big regular attack, but die anyway. All of these scenarios really suck, and come up often enough that I think we'll see palp about 25% as frequently in the cut as we did previously.

4 hours ago, Criwi Romed said:

I've seen a couple people mention getting frustrated when Palpatine "whiffs", but I'm a bit confused by this.

Do you mean that you're declaring Palpatine, but you roll all evades anyways? If that's the case, you shouldn't be annoyed by it because you didn't need his help anyways. You've just lost the ability to use him on offense later. This is exactly where he's lost a bit of value, which I think brings him in line with where he should be.

Or do you mean that you actually whiff and rolled blanks? Palpatine still helps the same way he did before.

I believe there are a few ways to define a "whiff" when it comes to Palpatine:

1. You already maxed out your roll with the desired results thus Palpatine would just be changing a result into itself.

2. You do not get all of the desired results so Palpatine does his thing. While not completely a "whiff" if the net outcome still doesn't do what it needs to do they the ability is wasted. Some examples:

• Rolling Defense against a number of attack dice great enough to kill you. Maybe Palpatine cancels one but if the dice fail you then you still take lethal damage making Palpatine a non-factor.
• Rolling attack Palpatine may always ensure you get a desired result but if there is no dice help and unaided Defense still stops Palpatine's change then Palpatine didn't do much there either.
• Although a little harder to qualify but if Palpatine just makes an attack or defense roll an overkill then he has essentially been wasted. If you need to put two cards on a 0 defense ship but roll 3 dice and have two natural hits the Palp didn't offer a meaningful contribution. If you are defending but your basic Defense already stops the attack you've wasted Palpatine.

3 hours ago, StevenO said:

I believe there are a few ways to define a "whiff" when it comes to Palpatine:

1. You already maxed out your roll with the desired results thus Palpatine would just be changing a result into itself.

2. You do not get all of the desired results so Palpatine does his thing. While not completely a "whiff" if the net outcome still doesn't do what it needs to do they the ability is wasted. Some examples:

• Rolling Defense against a number of attack dice great enough to kill you. Maybe Palpatine cancels one but if the dice fail you then you still take lethal damage making Palpatine a non-factor.
• Rolling attack Palpatine may always ensure you get a desired result but if there is no dice help and unaided Defense still stops Palpatine's change then Palpatine didn't do much there either.
• Although a little harder to qualify but if Palpatine just makes an attack or defense roll an overkill then he has essentially been wasted. If you need to put two cards on a 0 defense ship but roll 3 dice and have two natural hits the Palp didn't offer a meaningful contribution. If you are defending but your basic Defense already stops the attack you've wasted Palpatine.

Most of the examples you gave for number 2 still could have happened with the old Palpatine rules, so I see little loss of value in that respect.

For number 1, you are correct, you lose the chance to use him later, but you've already mitigated maximum damage. I'll take that all day.

What I mean by all of this is that the Palpatine whiffs aren't nearly as detrimental as you would initially think. After three games, I'm noticing roughly 1-2 turns each game where the ability didn't make a difference (first two games 1 turn was missed, third game 2 turns were missed). 2 out of these 4 "misses" was because i got the dice I needed to evade anyways. 1 ended up being extra unnecessary damage, and another was because I forgot to declare his use before rolling an attack.

There is certainly a loss of value against TLTs though, which others have pointed out. If a ship has tokens, lets say Whisper cloaked with focus and evade, I don't think I ever Palp against a TLT shot. Worst case scenario, you take a single damage. Save Palp for when tokenless, or one hull away from death.

I played Palp Upsilon, Omega and Backdraft at two tournament this weekend. Finished 2nd in both of them. Palp was still amazing. The rumors of his death were exaggerated...

17 hours ago, StevenO said:

I believe there are a few ways to define a "whiff" when it comes to Palpatine:

1. You already maxed out your roll with the desired results thus Palpatine would just be changing a result into itself.

2. You do not get all of the desired results so Palpatine does his thing. While not completely a "whiff" if the net outcome still doesn't do what it needs to do they the ability is wasted. Some examples:

• Rolling Defense against a number of attack dice great enough to kill you. Maybe Palpatine cancels one but if the dice fail you then you still take lethal damage making Palpatine a non-factor.
• Rolling attack Palpatine may always ensure you get a desired result but if there is no dice help and unaided Defense still stops Palpatine's change then Palpatine didn't do much there either.
• Although a little harder to qualify but if Palpatine just makes an attack or defense roll an overkill then he has essentially been wasted. If you need to put two cards on a 0 defense ship but roll 3 dice and have two natural hits the Palp didn't offer a meaningful contribution. If you are defending but your basic Defense already stops the attack you've wasted Palpatine.

1 is a valid whiff. That's why Palping for offensive crits has become more valuable with the new version. It's an awful lot less likely that you roll all crits than any other 'good' result.

2 all feel like the best thing to do is to learn better when to use Palp.
- If you're facing down an attack that will kill you, do you have other dice mods you can use? Are there other attacks coming? How likely is it that you'll die even if you DO use Palp?
- If you're using him on the attack and you have no other dice mods, is it actually worth using him?
- If you're using him on a defence roll you have a good chance with anyway, is it worth using him?
etc

New Palp forces you to actually THINK about these things rather than autopiloting him via 'will attack hit if yes palp. Are there any other attacks incoming if no, palp crit'.

I think it's possible he's a touch overpriced now in the Lambda as a universal support, but running him as an attack booster in a low-green list will still be fine.

Hes too expensive for the effect now. FFG wrecked this one. Make way for the Rebels.

7 minutes ago, GeneralBergfrühling said:

Hes too expensive for the effect now. FFG wrecked this one. Make way for the Rebels.

How close were your games? How many times did you get good use of him, to either push an extra damage, save a damage, or fix a crit?

3 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

How close were your games? How many times did you get good use of him, to either push an extra damage, save a damage, or fix a crit?

What are you want to tell me?

I hate the latest change and I address it right here. I'm not even a power tournament player. I attended some tournaments and I used Palp once only but in my own list. I tend to play casually mostly using fluff lists. I never had a problem with opposing players using palp are too strong because of palp.

I ran Palp last night and he still held his value for me. I ran him on an Upsilon with Pure Sabacc and a Maarek Defender as wingmen. Granted it is only one game, but I felt like I got good use out of him nearly every turn.

21 minutes ago, GeneralBergfrühling said:

What are you want to tell me?

I hate the latest change and I address it right here. I'm not even a power tournament player. I attended some tournaments and I used Palp once only but in my own list. I tend to play casually mostly using fluff lists. I never had a problem with opposing players using palp are too strong because of palp.

He wants to hear about your experience with Palpatine after the nerf, as this is what this topic seeks to discuss. You basically confirmed your bias by having no evidence behind your claim.

And to the sentiment that this survey of results may be all void because those who think he is now bad aren't going to play him anymore. What is that called again? Oh right. A self fulfilling prophecy.

If people play him and find that he is still good, guess what... he's probably still good. You probably wont find enough data here to prove that as a certain fact, but it's at least a start to get naysayers beyond their frustration that their crutch card is no longer lifting them higher than it should, or conversely, to get the other side to accept maybe the nerf went too far.

I'd be interested in hearing the data on Zuckuss and Manaroo a bit more I think, as their nerfs were much more devastating than those handed out to Palp and x7 which early data seems to point to both being more than fine. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the Imperial faction is still defined by their use.

1 hour ago, GeneralBergfrühling said:

What are you want to tell me?

I wasn't wanting to tell you anything. I was asking what aspects of the games you played with the nerfed Palpatine led to your conclusion that "FFG wrecked this one." I figured a good starting point would be the very basics: hits done, damage saved, crits repaired, and the overall closeness of the games you played to make your determination.

As stated I've found Palp to be worth it still. I don't think he is as good with the aces like Soontir that are so subject to RNG. With a defender or sf or similar ship that is less dependent on defence dice he is still very very good. Now it also forces you to be able to do some quick math and again rewards sensible play. Great change to the card imho.

Palp is still outstanding

My biggest fear is the nerfs will be found to be too shallow. I've been squadbuilding Imperials and still just come back to the same pre-nerf squads being the best options.

I haven't personally played Palpatine yet since the FAQ, but I have tried some things that I think will end up being better: two heavily upgraded ace Imperials with a third smaller supporting ship. You make both of them end game terrors and make your opponent choose which one they want to kill.

I have played a lot of Palp aces, and frankly affording the Lambda and Palp already put a crunch on what you can actually take as your 2-3 other ships. With the addition of high cost upgrades that are worth it like Expertise or the Sensor Cluster/LW combo, and old ones like gunner and proton rockets, you have the ability to make Imperial aces much more self-sufficient than they were before. I think I'll be better off spending the points on upgrades that I couldn't afford otherwise that give just as good dice modifications. Zuckuss and Dengaroo getting nerfed to oblivion significantly helps with this.

I have had large success with this list type in the last week, winning a hanger bay at Endor with one on my docket, and again in casual play last week. I've been using a couple of different setups and haven't decided on one set one yet.

Given Palp is no longer a guarantee, when you are flying ships that virtually require guarantees to actually be worth taking, I doubt I'll be taking the space for him or his space cow in the future. I don't know why people think the Lambda is a decent ship, I ended up dropping Palp aces for a bit because I just hated flying it.

I did run against a Palp/Vader/RAC Decimator, but Expertise Quickdraw doubletaps did him in in two turns. So, I suppose that's actual table top experience for this thread.

I think Vader RAC will still carry Palp. And budgeon-y lists like this: Ups-Palp ViVessery OL

The good news about x7 nerf and Palp nerf is that 3 aces lists are seriously a good consideration. (And they are "bad" because any time you crap dice, you lose, so they have mitigating weaknesses). This hugely opens the field.

The bad news is that the Lambda might have to go into retirement finally, the last of the old guard from Wave3. Palp was the great thing that rose the Lambda back to its amazing status quo and now I think it will languish yet again.

5 hours ago, GeneralBergfrühling said:

What are you want to tell me?

I hate the latest change and I address it right here. I'm not even a power tournament player. I attended some tournaments and I used Palp once only but in my own list. I tend to play casually mostly using fluff lists. I never had a problem with opposing players using palp are too strong because of palp.

LOL you dont even use Palp and you claim he is too expensive.

I found him to still work in our game last Friday, The change was felt however - especially on median rolls. Occasionally on a fluke roll, where you should have no trouble, but end up blanking out entirely. I found myself using palpatine on offense much more than i previously would have, where as previously, I only used him offensively if it was the shuttle taking a shot - or I desperately needed a maxed out kill shot. - I find myself crunching probabilities with his use more than previously (as explained below)

The most interesting change in play - was that you find yourself changing results that you previously would NOT have used palpatine for. (like when you roll evade focus evade on soontir, and soontir has a focus + evade token stack, you would've spent focus or evade, instead of palping the result, which means now - your tokens spill over into the next roll, where previously you might have relied on palpatine - so in a funny way, there's a bit of a buffer if you guess wrong (IE that you will need palp , when you don't) on a key roll. I think he's still very much worth 8 points and double crew slots.


*Some people talk about his failure rate as if it's only attached to the chance of not affecting your own dice - IE when you roll 4 evades on 4 dice, or 1 crit on offense when you would've other wise rolled 4 crits. - While those cases are pretty slim, and as a result, palpatine rarely ever has no die result to change - it's a bit more dependent upon what the opponent rolls. - so its the convoluted probability that you need to care about. When the opponent scores 2 hits, and you have 3 defense dice, it's a harder call to make, than when they score 3 hits vs your 3 dice. In the 2 die case, you are effectively wasting your palpatine usage if you end up with 3 evades, because you only need 2. Thing is, when it comes to dealing damage, it's less reliant upon your opponents dice, because your hit roll determines what is needed for the defense roll, so it's never really bad to have an extra crit result, and max crits is so rare, that even if you end up with hit hit hit hit, the extra crit conversion is still worth something.

1 hour ago, Ravncat said:

*snip

The most interesting change in play - was that you find yourself changing results that you previously would NOT have used palpatine for. (like when you roll evade focus evade on soontir, and soontir has a focus + evade token stack, you would've spent focus or evade, instead of palping the result, which means now - your tokens spill over into the next roll, where previously you might have relied on palpatine - so in a funny way, there's a bit of a buffer if you guess wrong (IE that you will need palp , when you don't) on a key roll. I think he's still very much worth 8 points and double crew slots.

You hit gold! That's it! Use palp when you HAVE a focus and evade! Then you choose to spend palp and save the evade for your next rolls. This is so good!

On 12.3.2017 at 5:00 PM, Criwi Romed said:

I've seen a couple people mention getting frustrated when Palpatine "whiffs", but I'm a bit confused by this.

Do you mean that you're declaring Palpatine, but you roll all evades anyways? If that's the case, you shouldn't be annoyed by it because you didn't need his help anyways. You've just lost the ability to use him on offense later.

No, I lost the ability to use Palp on the roll afterwards which show again 1 blanks, one eye and one evade, say then good buy to Soontir afterwards, because he just died without Palp doing anything about it. ;-)