3 minutes ago, MalusCalibur said:

I am here because I wanted to offer the alternative viewpoint and answer the question in the title. Certainly I seem to be the only one with that viewpoint.

In any case, point taken. I'll leave you to it.

Your point has been very thoroughly noted. In fact, all the dissents are you, numbering about one per post form someone else.

Also you didn't answer the question because you didn't test it. even if for science.

Just now, Blail Blerg said:

Your point has been very thoroughly noted. In fact, all the dissents are you, numbering about one per post form someone else.

Then consider the dissent silenced. Certainly you arn't the only one who doesn't want to hear it.

Just now, MalusCalibur said:

Then consider the dissent silenced. Certainly you arn't the only one who doesn't want to hear it.

You're welcome to come back with table experience. And details.

1 minute ago, MalusCalibur said:

Then consider the dissent silenced. Certainly you arn't the only one who doesn't want to hear it.

you're welcome back when you have table experience, preferably multiple. and detailed analysis of real world situation. Preferably with anecdotal games that provide a good basis of analysis.

Also, silenced is pretty redundant for two pages of your commentary.

5 hours ago, MenaceNsobriety said:

2. 3PO only guarantees you get 1 evade and only really works with 1 agility ships. Palp guarantees you get 1 evade PLUS whatever you rolled in the first place.

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "plus whatever you rolled" this isn't quite right as Palpatine doesn't actually add results, but 3PO does. If you're a YT-1300 and defending with a Focus token, and you guess 0 with 3PO:

1) you roll (evade), 3PO does nothing, your die results are: (evade)

2) You roll (blank), 3PO triggers and adds a result, your die results are: (evade) (blank)

3) You roll (focus), 3PO triggers, your die results are: (evade) (focus)

In every case you've gotten at least 1 evade result, but in case 3 you potentially have two since you can convert the (focus). In the same theoretical situation with New Palpatine where you're choosing (evade), all three cases your die results are a single (evade). So with a 1 AGI ship, C-3PO "guarantees at least 1 (evade)" while Palpatine "guarantees 1 (evade)". Palpatine is actually worse on 1 die defense rolls*. Once you're rolling two dice though, C-3PO stops being a guarantee while Palpatine continues to. 3PO's potential benefit continues to be arguably stronger as it's adding a result to your pool rather than changing an existing die, but there's an element of chance now and 3PO definitely loses that contest. You're still playing a guessing game with New Palp, as there are cases, including many besides the obvious all (evade) or all (crit) rolls, where Palpatine doesn't really do anything** but the odds of making that bad guess are a lower with Palp than 3PO.

So, outside the niche of 1 AGI, Palp is definitely a better upgrade than C3PO, but is he 5 more points and an additional crew slot better(you know, ignoring they're both restricted to different factions anyway)? it's hard to say, given Old Palp was certainly undercosted, and you can probably make the argument that C-3PO is, though not by as much as Old Palp was if so. But I guess that's what the point of this thread is, people with practical experience with the build reporting back. I think we'll have a much better idea after the Hoth Open how much all of the recent errata really impacts the meta and how effective these cards are than we'll get out of a few people's anecdotes though.

tl;dr New Palp is definitely better than 3PO, as long as you're rolling more than one die. How this translates into actual tabletop effectiveness? Beats me unfortunately, sounds more promising so far than I expected though.

* Barring edge cases like Crackshot, that can cancel the result granted by 3PO but not the dice changed by Palp since he says you can't modify again... right?

**rolling something like (evade)(focus)(focus) while you have a focus token, and need all three (evade)s, for instance

18 minutes ago, Otacon said:

* Barring edge cases like Crackshot, that can cancel the result granted by 3PO but not the dice changed by Palp since he says you can't modify again... right?

Crackshot cancels a result rather than changes it and so is not considered modification. That's why it works on Lockdown even if she has you TL'd

He's not an autoinclude and another ace instead of him is something now worth considering.

Whether or not he's worth it probably will need to be seen at the next few regionals / nationals when it goes into effect.

Flew this today with new Palp rules:

Starkiller Base Pilot/Palp/Electronic Baffle/HyperWave Comm (40)

Omega Leader/Juke/Comm Relay (26)

Carnor Jax/PTL/Autothrusters/Targeting Computer (33)

I felt that in this list, at 99 points, you might have some sort of initiative bid for other PS8's. I got the bid and am not disappointed I changed out stealth device for Targeting Computer to save the point. Jax was hitting like a truck all day. I think you need something in the new shuttle list that can really hit hard and cause havoc. My games:

Game 1: New gal flying Rey and Old Han, both with trick shot. Rey had Finn and Engine Upgrade at 99 points. I basically taught her the strengths of her list. Han was flanking, Rey tried to get in with everyone in arc. I started SBP shuttle in lower left, 3 banked along the back edge, then turned in on my side of the asteroid field. Han was coming in on my right, Rey on my left. Both aces went after Rey. She ended up bumping SBP (who baffled 3 times to stay put and focus) while the aces bumped into her. Had she 4k'd behind the shuttle it might have been different. She did end up taking the shuttle off the board and a turn later the aces finished her off. She had initiative (lucky roll), but I would have had the choice had she been running either title on either Falcon.

Of the rolls in Game 1 that palp "wiffed": 1. I think I called a defensive evade and then rolled 3 with Jax. And it didn't matter. Palp was used 6 or 7 other times to great effect. Maybe did it defensively twice.

Game 2: Played a girl that has played for a few months, she was running Ryad/PTL/TIE MK2/X7, Vader/Expertise/EU/ATC, Duchess/LWF/VI/AA. She normally does pretty good with imperials. I setup SBP on my lower left after all the rocks were tight on her side. From left to right on her side was Duchess, Vader, Ryad. Ryad did an aggressive 5 into the rock field, I screamed Carnor and OL forward at 4 straights. Vader went aggressive and so did Duchess. SBP did a 2 bank to his left going up the left side of the board. Next turn I parked SBP, baffled, focused, and her duchess adapted and did a 3 bank, putting her range 1 of SBP. Vader was blocked by Jax who screamed forward. OL banked and TL'd Ryad who was at range 1 in the middle of the board. Vader doesn't do good when blocked and between Jax, OL next turn, SBP the turn after when Vader landed on the rock, he died fairly quickly to OL and Jax. Duchess vaporized to a lucky roll (palp helped) of BHHCC which went to HHCCC on turn 2. She evaded 2 but there was a direct hit in one of the 3 crits that landed. Vader died next. And Ryad was chased down by the aces. She was after points and got SBP to half (he eventually ran to the other side of the board with the aces tailing Ryad).

Palp wiffs: 1. And it didn't matter again (offense this time). Otherwise Palp was more useful on Defense. She had to take targets of opportunity when shooting with Ryad because Jax would arcdodge and OL had a TL. Palp was used defensively a few times.

Game 3: Played a guy with 3 scum: Kath with Gonk and VI, Kavil with VI, TLT, EU, Genius, Proton Bombs, Extra Munitions (it was seriously one scary Kavil), and Jakku Gunrunner with SpaceTug Tractor Array. I misread that thinking it was range 1-3, not range 1. I gave him initiative and setup a fairly tight asteroid field on his half of the board. I sent the shuttle up the left side, Jax up the far right (very hesitantly because Kavil was there) and OL up the middle. OL eventually converged on the space tug with the shuttle, which got it turn one with lucky crits before it fired (Palp helped here greatly). He started with Kath and Kavil on the back right. I was seriously fearing Kavil with EU who could dodge Jax, or drop a bomb and dodge, and had 4 dice TLT's. He inched Kavil and Kath forward, letting Carnor get Range 3 shots on Kavil through rocks. I plinked a couple shields off while Kath went up the middle. She got one shot on OL who already had her locked, did nothing. The shuttle lucked out and killed the space tug on one shot before it fired (very aggressive with shuttle). Next turn Shuttle got in Kavil's face and Kath parked on a rock. Kavil got one bomb off which hit OL for a direct hit. He had also lost one shield, and Jax was just fine. Down to Kath, Jax did his jerk bit and OL did his, Kath eventually died without putting any more damage on anyone. We did chase her across the board as Jax couldn't really afford to TL not knowing how far Kath would go.

I used Palp at least 4 times to save either OL or Jax, probably wiffing his ability twice on great D rolls. Won when I chased Kath to a corner and Jax was finally able to get that TL.

Game 4: Kavil/TLT/Atanni/Unhinged, Asajj with Atanni/Latts Razzi, and Tansarii Pt Vet/Heavy Scyk/HLC/Atanni. I won the coin toss and gave him initiative for rock placement. I started all three of mine in the lower left across from his 3 in the upper right. Tansarii went through the middle, shuttle up the left, next turn I mistakenly nicked a rock with a 2 turn on the shuttle to right turn it into the asteroid field. Asajj was going slow and kavil was following the Tansarii. He landed a little damage on my shuttle and I really missed that 4 dice return shot to the Tansarii. Next turn the shuttle did a 1 forward + coordinate to OL and the Tansarii did a 2 straight, barely nicking a rock. OL, Carnor, and Shuttle weren't able to take it down (really rolled bad on red dice and I HAVE to save tokens + Palp for Carnor defense against Kavil) At this point the shuttle is at 1/2 health as Asajj was handing it stress tokens I was pitching with the Baffle to keep my options open on maneuvering. I managed to 2 turn the shuttle back towards me, causing the Scyk to bump the shuttle and Asajj to bump the Scyk. Here things got to be a blur because he was really flying well. Carnor finally killed the Scyk but took a point from Kavil. OL still full. I 2 turn the shuttle to my right and Kavil gets out in front of it. Kavil and Asajj managed to take it down before it fired on Kavil! Carnor had double stress, and OL was on Kavil's rear. Next turn, Carnor vaporized from Kavil (I guessed 4 straight and didn't get into range 1 of Kavil, barely). Asajj was pointed to my lower left and had to take the long way around, so OL did what he does and took 4 or 5 turns to take out Kavil. Full health OL vs Full health Asajj, eventually it will be a lucky Asajj or OL takes it. We had 35 minutes left on the clock and OL was able to do it in 20. Slowly whittling down Asajj, he didn't take any damage back. Scum player absolutely turned on the shuttle at exactly the right moment even though he lost. Palp felt useless this whole game because I couldn't use him on offense, and TLT's hurt Carnor a TON.

Palp: Whiffed a lot in this game. I just couldn't get it when I needed it. Palp died because I was using him for Carnor and whiffed a couple times (Rolled blank blank focus to Kavil's 4 hits), Carnor died after a double stress (had to PTL to not die from Kavil that turn, who instead shot up the shuttle), and when it was OL's turn to shine he was facing a full health Asajj and Kavil with 2 shields gone.

Overall feelings on Palp: Still very strong, just not rediculous. Had this been under the old rules I would have lost fewer ships on the day. You can't blindly run across a rock using Palp to save you "if need". Things need to be planned out well in advance. I think thematically this is great too! As Palp has forseen. It used to be if you had Palp, Stealth device was king. If not, you went targeting computer on an interceptor like Fel or Jax. I think now that Targeting computer is the better buy to save a point and leave you guessing/wiffing less with Palp. I did have a couple times where Palp could have been put to better use the old way in a more competitive environment. I'll have to try him on the Lambda to see for sure.

On ‎3‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 5:22 PM, Evantas said:

He's not an autoinclude and another ace instead of him is something now worth considering.

Whether or not he's worth it probably will need to be seen at the next few regionals / nationals when it goes into effect.

Between the list I flew today and a triple ace list I've been kicking around (Whisper/Fel/Duchess all at PS9), I'd much rather fly the triple ace! I'm looking forward to how things shake out in the coming regionals.

He still does the core of his job, but loses a lot of value. Played 4 games with him today, and it's pretty frustrating when he whiffs. Main thoughts:

He sucks against TLTs

Target lock doesn't stack well with him, as you need to change the die immediately after your roll. So if you roll 3 blanks, instead of rerolling 3 and then changing one, you now reroll two dice.

He seems like he'll be worth taking if you have a particularly critical piece that you really want to improve the survivability of, but isn't good all-around value. Most rounds he did fine, but every now and then he's a blank card, which is very bad for 8 points and the necessity of bringing a shuttle or sacrificing extremely valuable deci crew slots.

On 9.3.2017 at 6:07 PM, MenaceNsobriety said:

I have seen this stated repeatedly and it's just pain wrong!

1. Palp works on very ship in your list. 3PO only the one he is riding on.

2. 3PO only guarantees you get 1 evade and only really works with 1 agility ships. Palp guarantees you get 1 evade PLUS whatever you rolled in the first place.

3. Palp works on offense.

Lets say for the sake of argument you have 3PO on a 3 agility ship. You call 0 and roll evade, focus, blank. 3PO did nothing. Same scenario with Palp. You end up with evade, evade, focus. See the difference? 3PO is RANDOM while Palp is GUARANTEED.

Let's say I roll Evade, Focus, Blank against an out of arc 2 hit TLT shot, I roll this twice. even. Auto Thruster turn this into evade, focus, evade and Palp does nothing.

Let's say it 3 hits. Palp does still nothing.

Let's say its 2 hits and I don't have autothrusters. I spend my evade token first, my focus token second and Palp is still useless in all cases when I don't have further use for those tokens, for example because I shot already this turn and don't get more attacks this turn. A common scenario.

Meanwhile our little C3PO is very reliable on those agi 1 ships. You might call Palpatine a glorified global C3PO for ships of all agility. Clearly still stronger than C3PO, especially because he is global and works a little better with agi 2+ ships, but in the end with rather similar and even stronger limitations to his effectiveness. The main source of palpatine's strength is gone.

For the same points I get btw 2 regenerators, at the price of two upgrade slots, which is the real deal when you compare card strength.

3 games with-

RAC + Palp + Kylo
Darth Vader + Title + ATC
(And other, less relevant upgrades)

Obviously, Palp was useful to ensure a crit on an attack roll. Especially with Vader getting another guaranteed crit.
Used Palp for evades when the enemy attack roll was high.
Not willing to waste it on asteroid damage rolls. Probably willing to use it with damage card rolls, though this list tends to use the Palp on attacks.

I probably should run the Commonwealth Defenders list to get a better picture without doing the Klyo Ren thing.

My opinion is that Palp still has a place. I think he's now overcosted, but still good.

35 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Let's say I roll Evade, Focus, Blank against an out of arc 2 hit TLT shot, I roll this twice. even. Auto Thruster turn this into evade, focus, evade and Palp does nothing.

Let's say it 3 hits. Palp does still nothing.

Let's say its 2 hits and I don't have autothrusters. I spend my evade token first, my focus token second and Palp is still useless in all cases when I don't have further use for those tokens, for example because I shot already this turn and don't get more attacks this turn. A common scenario.

Meanwhile our little C3PO is very reliable on those agi 1 ships. You might call Palpatine a glorified global C3PO for ships of all agility. Clearly still stronger than C3PO, especially because he is global and works a little better with agi 2+ ships, but in the end with rather similar and even stronger limitations to his effectiveness. The main source of palpatine's strength is gone.

For the same points I get btw 2 regenerators, at the price of two upgrade slots, which is the real deal when you compare card strength.

Palp is useless if you're rolling well enough to stop damage without his help. If that happens all game, you might think of Palp as being a pointless upgrade, but I'd instead focus on the fact that you had a blowout win. Is a 100-0 win not good enough?

You can call him glorified 3PO if you want, but with a huge asterisk. Being useable on offense and on any ship on the table are two big points that don't really fall under the umbrella of *glorified*. But your ignore them for the sake of griping at your leisure.

1 hour ago, PiebeatsCake said:

He still does the core of his job, but loses a lot of value. Played 4 games with him today, and it's pretty frustrating when he whiffs. Main thoughts:

He sucks against TLTs

Target lock doesn't stack well with him, as you need to change the die immediately after your roll. So if you roll 3 blanks, instead of rerolling 3 and then changing one, you now reroll two dice.

He seems like he'll be worth taking if you have a particularly critical piece that you really want to improve the survivability of, but isn't good all-around value. Most rounds he did fine, but every now and then he's a blank card, which is very bad for 8 points and the necessity of bringing a shuttle or sacrificing extremely valuable deci crew slots.

I said this a lot also: really breaks the Palp Aces vs TLT matchup.

10 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Palp is useless if you're rolling well enough to stop damage without his help. If that happens all game, you might think of Palp as being a pointless upgrade, but I'd instead focus on the fact that you had a blowout win. Is a 100-0 win not good enough?

I hate it to tell you, but you use Palp only once per turn. And I was using perfectly average rolls of 1 blank, 1 evade and 1 eye. You are not winning 100-0 in this example, you are just not getting any use out of Palp, lose him after 2-3 turns of him doing absolutely nothing for you. ;-)

Or let me rephrase it in another way, offensively palpatine is worthless than a focus, defensively he is worth a little less than an evade token, while you need to have a second ship for 29 points minimum active. And he consumes two upgrade slots. Meanwhile mindlink is one point. ;-)

Wait for Jabba the Hutt

24 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

I hate it to tell you, but you use Palp only once per turn. And I was using perfectly average rolls of 1 blank, 1 evade and 1 eye. You are not winning 100-0 in this example, you are just not getting any use out of Palp, lose him after 2-3 turns of him doing absolutely nothing for you. ;-)

No, the scenario you laid out was:

1 hour ago, SEApocalypse said:

Let's say its 2 hits and I don't have autothrusters. I spend my evade token first, my focus token second and Palp is still useless in all cases when I don't have further use for those tokens, for example because I shot already this turn and don't get more attacks this turn. A common scenario.

So I don't see how you have no further use for defensive tokens, and yet, are getting shot multiple times.

24 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Or let me rephrase it in another way, offensively palpatine is worthless than a focus, defensively he is worth a little less than an evade token, while you need to have a second ship for 29 points minimum active. And he consumes two upgrade slots. Meanwhile mindlink is one point. ;-)

He is offensively only worse than a focus token if you both: roll more than one focus, AND don't have a focus token to spend on offense. Otherwise, crits are better than hits, converting a single focus to a crit and not using a token (if available), and converting a blank to a crit are all way more useful than having a focus token for offense. So no, he's worth less than a focus token for offense. That is just plain incorrect.

He is worth slightly less than an evade token on defense, but considering it's essentially an almost evade that any ship on the table can use, it's worth more than an evade token on a single ship.

Are you really going to set the bar for useful upgrades at being as good or better than attani mindlink? You are going to be disappointed constantly.

Attanni mindlink imo, needs a tweak. =)

1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

I said this a lot also: really breaks the Palp Aces vs TLT matchup.

Even with Autothrusters in the mix? Sounds like the Inquisitor would be a good ship to run with him, as he is a bit more beefy than the squints.

Just now, Admiral Deathrain said:

Even with Autothrusters in the mix? Sounds like the Inquisitor would be a good ship to run with him, as he is a bit more beefy than the squints.

If you've run it, you'd feel me on this: Autothrusters requires either extra extra tokens or it will not fend off more than 1x2 TLT shots with focus.

If you spread 4 TLTs out so that its not easy to get into R1 of more than 1, youre taking 3 TLT shots, and you will begin to take damage. Palp is pretty useless here.

I think the reason a lot of people are complaining now is because Palpatine was easily undercosted for what he did before (as Major Juggler and others have shown) and many people have gotten used to his power level. It is still a useful card and probably costed accurately for what it does now ( as opposed to before!).

Of course Palpatine is still worth it. Anyone who claims otherwise is drowning in a vat of their own salty tears.

I have not yet used him, but i saw a game and fron what i read here it is after all a minor nerf to him and to X7.

in contrast to Zuckuss and Manaroo that got hit much harder.

But i think it's a correct read in both cases. Mindlink is still strong even without manaroo, and Emperor and X7 stay playable but are a bit toned down.

Which is imho what was needed.

I played a Vassal game against a Palp-carrying Kylo, inquisitor, and Omega Leader. Palp was still useful but was wasted a few times against bomb damage rolls and on offense when the dice didn't cooperate or were too cooperative on the wrong rolls. I think a wasted palp contributed to the new-shuttle's death when otherwise it would've had 1 additional round of shooting at nearly dead K-Wings. I don't think I'll ever take a palp/lambda again, the certainty of a 3rd ship that will contribute is worth more. With Kylo's effect and using palp almost exclusively on offense to ensure a critical I could see it contributing, but 8 points and 2 crew is a lot to give up for that effect. With bombs, other auto damage, and Zuckuss (weakened though he is) Imperial aces were almost completely dead competitively anyways this is just another blow to the fragile aces.

He needs to be 7 points and 2 crew... sounds dumb, but there are a bunch of lists that could use that 1 point for a key up grade or initiative bid. Those things would make him worth taking. Right now with Sabine being strong, not really being able to call rock rolls, TLT, and many other things out there; he is just not worth it competitively. Still a good card, but I would trust my flying skills with another ace more than a unreliable palp. Unless I am flying a Deci.