Armada vs IRL Naval Strategy, Battlecruisers, and Other Things

By GiledPallaeon, in Star Wars: Armada

I’ve been bouncing this around for awhile in my head, but an offhand comment in Green Knight’s errata thread (tangent, I’m so proud of us for not turning that into a flame war, great job guys) convinced me to finally write this up. Much of my background focuses on naval strategy, operations, etc., both in the present and in the recent past (20th century). So with that in mind, I have collated something of an organization to the types of ships the starships in Armada play, based on their role and capabilities. A note, I know that almost every ship in Armada can be forced to play the role of carrier, so I’m mostly focused on ship-to-ship capabilities and design. I’d like to see what people think of my delineation and comparisons, and of a note I’ll save for the end.

Let’s start with the light units. Both flotillas rather defy conventional denomination schemes, but for the sake of it I’m filing them under corvette-carriers (that’s carriers that are corvettes, not ships carrying corvettes, for the record). The best real world analogs are the Bogue style escort carriers built by the Allies during World War 2, cheap, slow, expendable(ish), and kept around not to fight other combatants face to face, but to organize squadrons and perform critical fleet support functions. They are, I will note, the only ships that are carriers in the American sense, which is to say without significant internal armament.

Next up are four small ships often grouped together that I am going to break apart for doctrine reasons, the CR90, the Raider, the MC30, and the Gladiator. For the CR90, I would classify this ship as a frigate. It’s fast and agile (frigate-built), and effective as a light screening ship capable of pitched combat, but not a dedicated killer. Even with TRCs, CR90s have a rather standoffish approach to combat, and they certainly have relatively low damage output compared to many other options in game. They exist as flanking fire support, drawing attention and energy away from the main battle group, and with titles like Tantive IV, they fulfill a similar support function in fleets to the corvettes. An example comparison is the recently retired Perry class frigate.

Raiders, MC30s, and Gladiators by contrast are destroyers. Just as fast and agile as the CR90, instead of plinking away at the edge of battle they dive right in, gunning for high damage output and destruction. Raiders are destroyers with an anti-aircraft (squadron) bent, like the WW2 era Fletcher class, whereas Gladiators and MC30s destroy ships, pure and simple. A more modern comparison for the latter pair would be the Cold War era Soviet Sovremenny class destroyers, or the American Spruance class destroyer. These are the aggressive units in a fleet, with high dice-hull ratios, and often high points-hull ratios as well. Like frigates, destroyers typically operate in groups, often with cruisers or a battleship present, but wolfpacks are not necessarily unviable.

The next category is light cruisers, filled by the Nebulon-B, the Arquitens, and the Pelta. These are ships that start to form the backbone of fleets. While not necessarily as high-performance as destroyers or frigates, light cruisers are found in many fleets as the flexible muscle, and the ships where a loss is actually possibly a significant degradation to fleet fighting power. By counterpoint, they are also usually the lightest ship that can safely wander off into danger from its own angle (e.g. Yavaris plus squads). They are equally adept at organizing squadrons, particularly the Pelta, and fighting ships face-to-face, and offer (generally somewhat) improved durability over destroyers and frigates. Sending a light cruiser to fight a destroyer is not a guaranteed victory for the cruiser, but odds are in its favor when played well. For historical comparison, I would compare the Nebulon to the Omaha class scout cruiser, the Arquitens to the Leander class, and the Pelta to a (somewhat slower) Cleveland class, with the Independence class light carrier filling in the Command version as the game’s only escort carrier. As a rule of thumb, the lightest most fleets will go for flagships is a light cruiser for these reasons, barring the odd destroyer swarm (e.g. Clonisher) or a lifeboat flotilla.

There is a case to be made that the durability of the Gladiator and MC30 slide them into the light cruiser category, leaving the Raider alone like the CR90. In some configurations, particularly MC30 Scout Frigates in Ackbar fleets with Gunnery Teams as long range harassers, MC30s provide the long range fire and moderate durability common to CLs, while the Gladiator’s brace token means it can be more survivable than an Arquitens. However, and I expect this to be a point of discussion, I have left them as destroyers, albeit heavy destroyers, by virtue of their aggressive playstyle to maximize black dice effectiveness, and the design intent that is less intent on a survivable multi-role platform than a dedicated attack unit. There is not actually a good comparison in real naval strategy for that much firepower packed into a platform both that expensive and that delicate, but given that the entire point of the ships is to deliver dice to target, I stand by the destroyer classification.

Above light cruisers are heavy cruisers, the Assault Frigate MK 2, the Victory, and the Interdictor. These are all solid ships, capable of holding a battle line, and with support from either another heavy cruiser or multiple light units effectively challenging enemy battleships. These ships are often the flagships of fleets without the dreadnoughts, and are fully in the range of capital ships in the classical sense. They are able to fight, and fight well, without the lighter units, but if the lighter units attempt to fight without them against superior forces, the odds are not in their favor. Heavy cruisers are most notable over light cruisers for the significant improvement in durability they offer, in addition to the usual firepower improvement. The Interdictor is something of the odd man out here, as it is fully as durable, and situationally as powerful as the other two heavy cruisers, but performs a far more subtle fleet support function than the other two ships that doesn't have a good real equivalent. A good general comparison for all of them is the Baltimore class or the Slava class cruiser, with the Saipan class carrier channeling the carrier capability.

The final category of starship is the battleship. This is the Imperial class Star Destroyer, the MC80, and the MC80 Liberty. These are the ultimate capital ships, with little to fear on the table besides each other, the ships they are built to fight. They fully meet the classic definition of a battleship, capable of both weathering and dealing incredible amounts of damage. They also are capable of providing incredible squadron support capabilities like fleet carriers, and are priced like all that to boot. A further subdivision might be that the Imperial and the Liberty are the category of fast battleships, providing (relative) speed and firepower, while Home One is a World War One style dreadnought with thick armor (shields and defensive retrofits) at the cost of speed. Historical comparisons to the Iowa class (Imperial), Bismarck (Home One), and the Scharnhorst (Liberty) are not at all out of place.

If you are only interested in an analysis of the game as it stands right now, and no speculative nonsense, stop here. This is my large, somewhat ham-handed analysis of Armada, and an attempt to write out how I approach each ship when I am fleet-building, and analyzing opponent tactics on the table. At some point I’ll probably do a similar large writeup for squadrons, but let’s start with ships. What did you agree with? What do you think I got dead wrong? How would you tweak this for future-proofing against incoming ships?

Moving away from the current classifications, have you noticed what ship type ended up left out? Battlecruisers. (If you wish to fight me about whether or not Scharnhorst is a battlecruiser, spoiler: she isn’t, she’s a fast battleship with a very specific mission set, PM me, this is the Armada forum.) There are two overall understandings of the battlecruiser, the British version and the German version. (The Japanese version is just early fast battleships, so that doesn’t count.) The British version, invented by Admiral Jackie Fisher, focused on battleship grade ships with battleship grade guns, but cruiser-grade speeds, meaning cruiser-grade armor. These were ships like HMS Invincible, HMS Renown, and the mighty HMS Hood, intended to avoid enemy battleships and sweep away enemy cruisers with hugely superior firepower. The German approach was (surprise, surprise) the inverse, trading the biggest guns for battleship grade armor with the cruiser grade speed, often leaving German battlecruisers with firepower sufficient to cow cruisers, but less overwhelming than British types. Examples would include SMS Von der Tann and Derfflinger. A great example of the distinction is the results of the Battle of Jutland, where numerous British battlecruisers were destroyed (doing something doctrinally they had no business doing), more than one with all hands, whereas the German battlecruisers all survived (more or less) the pounding delivered by British rifles.

That’s all a very long and convoluted way of introducing my second question, what does a battlecruiser for Armada look like? Is it a more powerful MC30, a Speed 4 ship reliant on evades and shields to bear it to target? Is it closer to the Liberty, a ship with weaknesses that render it somewhat less powerful than the current battleships, but more than powerful enough to annihilate cruisers in its way? Am I barking up the wrong tree, do the fast battleships of the Imperial and Liberty varieties indicate we’ve already past that point in the evolution of Armada ship types?

Ok, I'll bite. Interesting analysis - thanks for the effort!

I'll start with my quibbles - when discussing ship classes, it might be less confusing to keep the terminology restricted to a certain time frame, lest the conventions of various time periods mess up the discussion. For example, the definition of a frigate varies - in the 50's and 60's, the USN used the term to denote ships between destroyer and cruiser size (super-destroyers in effect), but then later reverted to the more common 20th-century definition as a small escort.

Similarly, while the 80's vintage Spruance class destroyers were large ships, they were completely dedicated to the ASW role, with minimal anti-ship/anti-air punch, quite unlike earlier (or contemporary Soviet) destroyers. It wasn't until the Kidd-class ships came along that that hull design got a significant offensive upgrade. So I'd stick with WW1/2 examples, for uniformity's sake.

On to the classifications:

Flotillas: Transport: I'd be tempted to compare them to CAM or MAC ships, merchant ships fitted to carry a few fighters while still serving their transport roles. Perhaps (as referenced in an earlier thread) an AMC or Q-ship for the Combat Retrofit version. Their survivability due to the scatter does make them quite hard to pin down though.

Smaller ships: CR90's and Raiders are the destroyers to me - flankers intended to peck away en masse while other ships hold the opponent's attention. Raiders are torpedo-heavy DD's (Shimakaze or Fletchers) while CR90's are more gun-heavy (Porter or Tribals).

Light Cruisers: MC30's and Gladiators fall into this category for me, if only on a cost basis alone. They're still fast, can flank/harass, and if they get close enough can throw out enough close range firepower to ruin any ship's day. (It should be pointed out that IJN fast battleship/battlecruiser Hiei was disabled by shellfire from destroyers and cruisers alone, delivered rapidly and at close range). The Japanese and Italians, amongst others, used small cruisers (Kuma class, Capitani Romani class) to lead destroyer squadrons so again I think it's a plausible comparison. They still packed torpedoes and heavy gun armaments...

I mostly agree with your other ship assessments, though I'm having real trouble with the Nebulon. The Omahas don't quite convey the right "feel" for me, as they were obscelescent by the late 1930's and never really saw action. Maybe....a submarine? Can harrass from long range (submerged) but catch it's side arc (recharging batteries on the surface) and it's likely toast. Well - that's a stretch. Not sure on this one.

To me the Liberty is definitely a Battlecruiser (British type). It's very fragile due to its weak side shields and no defensive upgrade slots, while the front arc firepower approaches that of an ISD. It's also the only large base ship that can go an effective speed 4. Now, I'm looking at this from the viewpoint of the 1930's, when fast battleships weren't really a "thing" yet. Once you get into the 1940's then your primary combatants are all running around at 28-32 knots and making the term "battlecruiser" a moot point. Tactically speaking I use my Liberty to bully smaller ships - I don't expect it to fight ISD's sucessfully on its own. Sounds like a battlecruiser to me!

:D

I really liked this breakdown.

Is the Battlecruiser the only role left unfilled, or are their others? Are future releases just going to be variations of these? Perhaps mix and match posterior pulls?

Nice analysis. I love that somebody else associates the MC30 with the Sovremenyy.

Also, the Liberty is definitely a battlecruiser (I have never heard any use of the term other than what you describe as"British-style", so I'm using that definition). So much so that it almost seems like it was designed more with that in mind than trying to match any kind of canonical representation of the ship. Selectively down-armored in exchange for speed, primary battery matching that of comparable battleships... Hell, it even checks the box of "sounds good on paper but crumples before anything heavier than a frigate, also bombers." :)

8 hours ago, Maturin said:

Ok, I'll bite. Interesting analysis - thanks for the effort!

I'll start with my quibbles - when discussing ship classes, it might be less confusing to keep the terminology restricted to a certain time frame, lest the conventions of various time periods mess up the discussion. For example, the definition of a frigate varies - in the 50's and 60's, the USN used the term to denote ships between destroyer and cruiser size (super-destroyers in effect), but then later reverted to the more common 20th-century definition as a small escort.

Similarly, while the 80's vintage Spruance class destroyers were large ships, they were completely dedicated to the ASW role, with minimal anti-ship/anti-air punch, quite unlike earlier (or contemporary Soviet) destroyers. It wasn't until the Kidd-class ships came along that that hull design got a significant offensive upgrade. So I'd stick with WW1/2 examples, for uniformity's sake.

On to the classifications:

Flotillas: Transport: I'd be tempted to compare them to CAM or MAC ships, merchant ships fitted to carry a few fighters while still serving their transport roles. Perhaps (as referenced in an earlier thread) an AMC or Q-ship for the Combat Retrofit version. Their survivability due to the scatter does make them quite hard to pin down though.

Smaller ships: CR90's and Raiders are the destroyers to me - flankers intended to peck away en masse while other ships hold the opponent's attention. Raiders are torpedo-heavy DD's (Shimakaze or Fletchers) while CR90's are more gun-heavy (Porter or Tribals).

Light Cruisers: MC30's and Gladiators fall into this category for me, if only on a cost basis alone. They're still fast, can flank/harass, and if they get close enough can throw out enough close range firepower to ruin any ship's day. (It should be pointed out that IJN fast battleship/battlecruiser Hiei was disabled by shellfire from destroyers and cruisers alone, delivered rapidly and at close range). The Japanese and Italians, amongst others, used small cruisers (Kuma class, Capitani Romani class) to lead destroyer squadrons so again I think it's a plausible comparison. They still packed torpedoes and heavy gun armaments...

I mostly agree with your other ship assessments, though I'm having real trouble with the Nebulon. The Omahas don't quite convey the right "feel" for me, as they were obscelescent by the late 1930's and never really saw action. Maybe....a submarine? Can harrass from long range (submerged) but catch it's side arc (recharging batteries on the surface) and it's likely toast. Well - that's a stretch. Not sure on this one.

To me the Liberty is definitely a Battlecruiser (British type). It's very fragile due to its weak side shields and no defensive upgrade slots, while the front arc firepower approaches that of an ISD. It's also the only large base ship that can go an effective speed 4. Now, I'm looking at this from the viewpoint of the 1930's, when fast battleships weren't really a "thing" yet. Once you get into the 1940's then your primary combatants are all running around at 28-32 knots and making the term "battlecruiser" a moot point. Tactically speaking I use my Liberty to bully smaller ships - I don't expect it to fight ISD's sucessfully on its own. Sounds like a battlecruiser to me!

:D

I agree, dancing through history is a bit rude, but in several cases, notably the CR90, I had a fair amount of trouble finding a comparison I was comfortable making. It didn't help that my original plan of one Cold War and one WW1/WW2 comparison fell through since i wanted to avoid truly obscure comparisons. I also admit I should have specified I meant the Spruances upgraded with MK 41 vertical launch system blocks and Harpoons.

The Bogues were MACs, pressed into service as escort carriers for convoys during WW2. Frankly I've got no idea what to do with them, they're just kinda off doing their own thing. Differentiating torpedo-heavy versus gun-heavy destroyers is a reasonable way to compare Raiders to CR90s, I like that. For the MC30 and Gladiator, they're imo destroyer leaders (which, to be fair, were often down-classed light cruisers). If you'll allow me one more jaunt through history, I'm going to dive back to the Age of Sail, and say they are Armada's take on USS Constitution and the other five original American frigates, and other ships like her, big, powerful (and expensive) "frigates" that can outfight anything they can't outrun, and vice versa. Classing them as light cruisers definitely isn't wrong, but there is a large gap between their playstyle and the other ships I slotted there. As for the Nebulon, that was the only thing that gave me half the trouble of the flotillas. I settled on the (again I should have noted this) the late WW2 configuration of the Omahas, decent anti-aircraft capability, guns that you shouldn't sneeze at, but not exactly the toughest or most dangerous ship for its steel/points. The sub comparison is also decent, but I think that is more along the lines of some sort of cloaking starship FFG may or may not ever give us.

2 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

Nice analysis. I love that somebody else associates the MC30 with the Sovremenyy.

Also, the Liberty is definitely a battlecruiser (I have never heard any use of the term other than what you describe as"British-style", so I'm using that definition). So much so that it almost seems like it was designed more with that in mind than trying to match any kind of canonical representation of the ship. Selectively down-armored in exchange for speed, primary battery matching that of comparable battleships... Hell, it even checks the box of "sounds good on paper but crumples before anything heavier than a frigate, also bombers." :)

The difference is relatively academic, but one I find intriguing. It is primarily borne out of a subtle doctrinal difference, in which the British expected their battlecruisers to fight around the battleships, whereas the Germans intended them to fight with the battleships (thus the differences in armor versus weaponry). The two design philosophies converged fairly quickly during the war (compare Renown and Hood with the unbuilt Mackensen class), but it is still, imo, a difference worth noting.

I personally find the comparison to the Sovremmeny ironic, given that one discards its defenses while the other discards its offense, but the comparison stands nonetheless. The representation of the Liberty is certainly intent on achieving a specific gameplay role over any nominally canon view of the ship, but I still hold the ship is a fast battleship. I personally have used it to great effect toe-to-toe with Imperials, often without much (but not no) support from other ships or squadrons. It is also the only pseudo-Speed 4 Large, and definitely intended to bully cruisers. If we are to compare the Liberty to any battlecruiser, I hold she is closest to HMS Hood, which was herself on the line of battlecruiser (role) versus fast battleship (design, especially with the ship's planned refit Bismarck put paid to).

Does anyone see a niche for a true Speed 4 Medium or Large ship, perhaps with potentially multiple native evade tokens, providing a high speed alternative to Home One, with the balancing commensurate loss in durability, or has my time at KDY led me astray?

Edited by GiledPallaeon
Snips

Thanks for writing this up. It's not something many can comment on, but I think any time we can link our hobbies to expanding our knowledge of the practical world it is a boon.

There are probably plenty of people who know a little bit about history that they didn't before because of this thread, and for those that are only here because we like plastic space ships that is great!

I think that it's pretty accurate. The one thing I would add is that How a ship is loaded out, for example, can change its role. For example, a Raider with expanded launchers can go from basically a flak platform to a combat ship.

Edited by Darth Tam
spelling

I hope no one is dissing the Perry class here. As an Aussie, we love the Perry. Of course we modded most with what we call the (wait for it)... The FFG upgrade.

yup, that's what we call it. It allows the craft to be altered with different kits to become almost a multi-role naval craft. From anti air support to sub hunting to becoming a ship killer. We often have to change our tactics depending on whose ships we are supporting (lately the US Navy).

First, do you play World of warships? =). Cuz that's so fun.

Yes. I agree with your classifications. (though flotillas to me are ships smaller than Destroyer classes, with just a Star Wars added ability to be decent at commanding fighters).

Interestly enough, this game doesn't really do the roles as well as WOWS does it. Gladiators and Mc30s are definitely destroyer sequel, but I'm not seeing the very strongly intended to attack small ship type of destroyers and light cruisers that would really be helpful.

ISD is a true superpower battleship. Just happens to be fast, however the Liberty has reduced shields, and even, reduced versatility, and possible higher speed with ET. Thus, I do really categorize the Liberty as a battlecruiser. They play like Iowas in wows.

Star Wars and WWII ships/planes is very very similar, due to star war's combat origin.

These are fair. I've been a student of WWII naval history since my high school days, so there are points where I think the justifications are fair and perhaps the closest equivalent, and points at which the way that naval history works versus the way Star Wars Armada works as a game just don't sync up all that well. Star Wars Armada also comes with quite a bit of granularity in that upgrades and model selections can drastically alter how a ship performs in the game.

Liberty really does have to be a Battlecruiser. Back when everyone thought Liberty's sucked and I was only the one really pioneering their use, I found the history of the Battlecruiser as a useful way of explaining how the ship works in Star Wars Armada. The fit is almost too perfect. And that takes me to one final key point, and that is that the thing that separates comparisons to Naval History as cute versus useful. For example, separating out by destroyer, light cruiser, and so forth might help make the analogies better, but in most cases we don't actually understand how to play the game of Star Wars Armada better simply by having that comparison.

17 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

These are fair. I've been a student of WWII naval history since my high school days, so there are points where I think the justifications are fair and perhaps the closest equivalent, and points at which the way that naval history works versus the way Star Wars Armada works as a game just don't sync up all that well. Star Wars Armada also comes with quite a bit of granularity in that upgrades and model selections can drastically alter how a ship performs in the game.

Liberty really does have to be a Battlecruiser. Back when everyone thought Liberty's sucked and I was only the one really pioneering their use, I found the history of the Battlecruiser as a useful way of explaining how the ship works in Star Wars Armada. The fit is almost too perfect. And that takes me to one final key point, and that is that the thing that separates comparisons to Naval History as cute versus useful. For example, separating out by destroyer, light cruiser, and so forth might help make the analogies better, but in most cases we don't actually understand how to play the game of Star Wars Armada better simply by having that comparison.

And that is a perfectly reasonable critique. That is why I made an effort in my analysis to point to what attributes means that ships perform similarly, and how that type performed and what duties it performed in real life. A large part of the comparisons I have tried to make were to allow an interested party to explore further and research to a greater level of detail what that doctrine actually means. The upgrades Armada allows admirals to fit to ships does affect how they play to varying degrees, but I have not found an upgrade combination that fully changes a ship's role, which is what this analysis attempted to divide out.

1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

First, do you play World of warships? =). Cuz that's so fun.

I dabble. It's a good game, if a radically different sort than Armada