Made this for people to talk about targeting synchronizer and what is a "game effect"

One side claims that targeting synchronizer is only good for secondary weapons and can't be used for normal re-rolls.

The other side claims that targeting synchronizer can be used for other things other than secondary weapons such as normal target lock re-roll spending.

For discussion purposes since there isn't offical writings for what is a "game effect" i suggest, in order to inform people how you view the card, to define what you think "game effects" is before stating if you think targeting synchronizer can be used one way or the other. Hopefully this will help others see another person's point of view.

Here is my take on it and why it works the way I think it does.

Personally I see "game effects" as a very simple thing since we do not have an in game definition for it. "Mechanics that are used in and that govern how the game is played" for better or worse wording. It is a very broad view point of what is a "game effect" but I feel it covers most things that are part of the game. A green die or red die by itself is not a game effect by itself but rolling one, adding one to a result, or changing one would be a game effect.

With this mindset lets look at the wording of the card

Quote

When a friendly ship at Range 1-2 is attacking a ship you have locked, the friendly ship treats the ' ATTACK (TARGET LOCK): ' header as ' ATTACK: '. If a game effect instructs that ship to spend a target lock, it may spend your target lock instead.

First lets pick out the trigger, or another words what makes the card activate in the first place. I see this as " When a friendly ship at Range 1-2 is attacking a ship you have locked " it requires a friendly ship (even itself) at range 1-2 that is attacking a ship that the ship with TS is on that is locked (assuming this means a target lock). The friendly ship (friendly ship at range 1-2 that is attacking a ship that you(the TS ship) has locked) it gets to treat the ATTACK (TARGET LOCK): header as "ATTACK:" which I would count as the effect the friendly ship gets when it is activating the trigger. Now the second part is where people are unsure of what it means so lets break it down.

" If a game effect instructs that ship to spend a target lock, it may spend your target lock instead. " This is a separate sentence from the previous that does not include the normal " If you do ..." clause that some other upgrades have (such as Advanced Targeting computer) or the " Then..." clause that tells us to do something after following the previous instructions. It does have its own trigger which is " If a game effect instructs that ship to spend a target lock..." Which has two parts to it 1.) which ship is "that ship", and 2.) is there a game effect telling "that ship" to spend a target lock. Now to determine what is "that ship" we look at the subject of the previous sentence which is " a friendly ship at Range 1-2 is attacking a ship you have locked" . Then we have to see if there is a game effect telling that ship to spend a target lock. There is the obvious effects of some missiles/torps that have the " ATTACK (TARGET LOCK): Spend your target lock and discard this card to perform this attack." on them and from the article HERE That uses omega ace using kylo ren's target lock for its own game effect of turning all dice rolled into crit results. Granted some articles have been wrong about rules in the past so I am using the article's example more to show intent of the designers rather than necessarily the RAW (rules as written) on the card itself. But I would also argue that spending a target lock for re-rolls on attack dice is also a game effect just like the examples from omega ace and from some missiles/torps.

On page 3 of the online rule book we have

Quote

While attacking, a ship can spend a target lock that it has on the defender to reroll any number of its attack dice.

"While attacking" being the trigger that allows the following "spend a target lock..." that allows the ship "...to reroll any number of its attack dice." just like a missile/torp's "Spend your target lock and discard this card to perform this attack" you have to spend the target lock in order to do something which is all the requirements that Targeting synchronizer cares about. Even if it requires the friendly ship to " treat the ATTACK (TARGET LOCK): header as "ATTACK:" " that friendly ship can still treat the header as "attack" even if it doesn't have an upgrade on it that has the ATTACK(target lock) header. It just doesn't really 'do anything' for that friendly ship but it still gains that effect and there are plenty of examples of ships getting effects that are 'useless' for them anyway but still has it. (Guidance chips as an example on a ship with 0 missiles/torps for 'giggles'. Or having an evade/focus token within range carnor jax's ability, it has it it just can't spend it, but other effects can remove them from that ship).

It is true that Game Effect is not clearly defined en the RRG. But Game effect have always meant Pilot Abilities and card effects.

Try searching the RRG for the term and you will gat a good picture of when FFG refers to sonethING as a game effect.

33 minutes ago, StephenEsven said:

It is true that Game Effect is not clearly defined en the RRG. But Game effect have always meant Pilot Abilities and card effects.

Try searching the RRG for the term and you will gat a good picture of when FFG refers to sonethING as a game effect.

Game effect has also been referred in the learn to play booklet as "

Quote

Some game effect s allow a ship to perform a Free action at various times during the game

What I think people are missing here is that 'instructs that ship to spend your target lock' does not cover spending a target lock for re-rolls. Spending a target lock to re-roll attack dice is an option; spending a target lock after initiating your Proton Torpedoes attack is not. Secondary weapons often 'instruct' you to spend a target lock as a cost of firing them. This is the only thing that Targeting Synchroniser affects that I can think of.

But in general, it is fair to say that any similar wordings for non secondary weapon effects would be covered by Targeting Synchroniser . I just can't think of any that exist in the game.

47 minutes ago, Oberron said:

Game effect has also been referred in the learn to play booklet as "

the co-oradnate action is neither a pilot ability or card effect but a ship action. but allows a ship to perform a free action. game effect is more than just pilot abilities and card effects.

Your logic is flawed. Game effects can grant free actions. But that does not mean that anything that grants a free action is a game effect. The coordinate action is a very good example of a Rule that grants a free action.

30 minutes ago, StephenEsven said:

Your logic is flawed. Game effects can grant free actions. But that does not mean that anything that grants a free action is a game effect. The coordinate action is a very good example of a Rule that grants a free action.

Then assuming game effects always/only mean pilot ability and card effects is flawed too since that very same logic can be applied to that. If you don't consider coordinate as a game effect what do you think game effect means and why does it not apply to coordinate since it clearly fits the "allows a ship to perform a Free action at various times during the game"

also in the faq they consider asteroids as a game effect, under stealth device faq

Quote

A ship equipped with Stealth Device only discards

Stealth Device if it defends against an attack and is hit.

Damage suffered from other game effect s (such as

Seismic Charge, asteroids, Feedback Array, or damage

received for being at Range 1 of a ship hit by Assault

Missiles) does not cause a ship to discard Stealth

Device.

42 minutes ago, InquisitorM said:

What I think people are missing here is that 'instructs that ship to spend your target lock' does not cover spending a target lock for re-rolls. Spending a target lock to re-roll attack dice is an option; spending a target lock after initiating your Proton Torpedoes attack is not. Secondary weapons often 'instruct' you to spend a target lock as a cost of firing them. This is the only thing that Targeting Synchroniser affects that I can think of.

But in general, it is fair to say that any similar wordings for non secondary weapon effects would be covered by Targeting Synchroniser . I just can't think of any that exist in the game.

Rules instruct players what to do for a game. The re-roll option still instructs the player to spend the target lock in order to get the re-roll. It is the cost of the re-roll.

Has anyone actually sent the question to Frank?

45 minutes ago, Oberron said:

Rules instruct players what to do for a game. The re-roll option still instructs the player to spend the target lock in order to get the re-roll. It is the cost of the re-roll.

Nope. I think you're dead wrong. I think that's a completely illogical attempt at pedantry. I do not believe there is any basis whatsoever for that interpretation, either by ruling, linguistics, or logic.

49 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Has anyone actually sent the question to Frank?

Because I have now.

Will report back.

I was wrong on one account. What I was referring to is Card Abilities, which is clearly defined in the RRG. Missions can also produce game effects. Obstacle rules tells you what effect they have when you overlap the, but are not refered to as game effects.

As I started out saying it is not clearly defined, hence this discussion thread. I fully get what you are saying. But I also agree with @InquisitorM that the tern 'instructs you to', can not be applied to spending a target lock to reroll dice. The rules allow you to choose to do so, and grants you a reroll if you choose to do so. They don't instruct you to do so as part of some game effect.

Regarding the Free actions example, if you follow the RRG page 3, only cards and missions can grant free actions, so coordinate would be broken, but on page 12 of the RRG this is countered saying card abilities and other effects.

Sometomes you just see the term effect, some times game effect and some times card ablility. When reading the rules, if often seems lige game effect is used as meaning card ability, but again it is not clear if that is the intent.

Using my own example of generics and specifics, Card Abilities are game effects, but game effects are not necessarily Card Ablilities. Missions can also produce game effects. What we are disagreeing on is wether the rules also counts as game effects. I have my oppinion, but hopefully now we will get an answer from FFG.

1 hour ago, InquisitorM said:

What I think people are missing here is that 'instructs that ship to spend your target lock' does not cover spending a target lock for re-rolls. Spending a target lock to re-roll attack dice is an option; spending a target lock after initiating your Proton Torpedoes attack is not. Secondary weapons often 'instruct' you to spend a target lock as a cost of firing them. This is the only thing that Targeting Synchroniser affects that I can think of.

But in general, it is fair to say that any similar wordings for non secondary weapon effects would be covered by Targeting Synchroniser . I just can't think of any that exist in the game.

This is why you cant use TS with the normal effect of Target Lock.

'You may spend a target lock to...' and 'Spend your target lock to...' are VERY different sentences. The first one is giving you the choice of spending the TL. The second one is instructing you to do so. That's where TS comes to play.

Except that TS works on Omega Ace, and he's a may, not a must

Okay, let's indulge in a game of 'I'm a better pedant than you'.

Quote

instruct

ɪnˈstrʌkt /

verb

1. 1 .

   tell or order someone to do something, especially in a formal or official way.

   "she instructed him to wait"
2. 2 .

   teach (someone) a subject or skill.

   "he instructed them in the use of firearms"

So when you are issued an order, you are instructed to do something. When you are given the information to do something of your own volition, you are instructed in how to do something.

Targeting Synchroniser says:

Quote

If a game effect instructs that ship to spend a target lock, it may spend your target lock instead.

So when it is talking about instructing you to spend a target lock , it is talking about the order. When the game rules say that you can spend a target lock to reroll your attack dice, they are instructing you in the options you have available.

Once you have declared an attack with Proton Torpedoes at. al., you are instructed – which is to say ordered – to spend a target lock as a necessary game effect. The rules allow you to spend a target lock to reroll any number of attack dice, they do not instruct you to do so.

Linguistic ability is of paramount importance when interpreting cards. My interpretation is plausible. The interpretation that says you can use Targeting Synchroniser to spend a target lock for rerolls is not. I can understand why someone might make that mistake, but it is a mistake nonetheless.

There is no wiggle room here. The question itself is invalid.

3 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Has anyone actually sent the question to Frank?

The day we saw the text.

Well, I just re-sent it today.

I was really hoping this would be covered in the FAQ. It's a pretty obvious question about the card that's not clear just from reading it.

The semantics in the Targeting Sybchronizer debate are interesting, but anyone with moderate language skills could jump in on either side of this debate and make plausible arguments.

I'll play with the word "instruct" as an example.

Instruct is the root of instruction. It stands to reason all rules and card abilities constitute a body of instructions to the players. Therefore any text in the rules or on a card satisifies the clause "instructs that ship" as it appears on Targeting Synchronizer.

Flip it the other way:

In the game there are instances of may (optional) and must (mandatory.) Instruct describes a mandatory condition, a must condition in game terms. If something is optional, like spending a target lock to modify dice, it does not satisfy the clause "instructs that ship" as it appears on Targeting Synchronizer.

"This bickering is pointless." - Wilhuff Tarkin

3 hours ago, InquisitorM said:

Okay, let's indulge in a game of 'I'm a better pedant than you'.

So when you are issued an order, you are instructed to do something. When you are given the information to do something of your own volition, you are instructed in how to do something.

Targeting Synchroniser says:

So when it is talking about instructing you to spend a target lock , it is talking about the order. When the game rules say that you can spend a target lock to reroll your attack dice, they are instructing you in the options you have available.

Once you have declared an attack with Proton Torpedoes at. al., you are instructed – which is to say ordered – to spend a target lock as a necessary game effect. The rules allow you to spend a target lock to reroll any number of attack dice, they do not instruct you to do so.

Linguistic ability is of paramount importance when interpreting cards. My interpretation is plausible. The interpretation that says you can use Targeting Synchroniser to spend a target lock for rerolls is not. I can understand why someone might make that mistake, but it is a mistake nonetheless.

There is no wiggle room here. The question itself is invalid.

Things you are forgetting that show you are wrong. The rules tell us that when you is used in the rules it refers to the ship. Ts even is saying "that ship" with the instruct part. Unless that ship is going to physically get up and spend the target lock, then clearly trying to limit the word instruct used as a command is illogical and incorrect according to both definitions you posted. You are also not ordered to fire secondary weapons they too are options with in order to use it you have to spend the target lock as a cost, just like rerolls. In order to get the rerolls from a target lock you are ordered to spend it just like some secondary weapons do.

5 hours ago, InquisitorM said:

Nope. I think you're dead wrong. I think that's a completely illogical attempt at pedantry. I do not believe there is any basis whatsoever for that interpretation, either by ruling, linguistics, or logic.

You know what makes a compelling argument? Evidence and showing a person is wrong instead of just saying they are wrong.

4 hours ago, StephenEsven said:

I was wrong on one account. What I was referring to is Card Abilities, which is clearly defined in the RRG. Missions can also produce game effects. Obstacle rules tells you what effect they have when you overlap the, but are not refered to as game effects.

As I started out saying it is not clearly defined, hence this discussion thread. I fully get what you are saying. But I also agree with @InquisitorM that the tern 'instructs you to', can not be applied to spending a target lock to reroll dice. The rules allow you to choose to do so, and grants you a reroll if you choose to do so. They don't instruct you to do so as part of some game effect.

Regarding the Free actions example, if you follow the RRG page 3, only cards and missions can grant free actions, so coordinate would be broken, but on page 12 of the RRG this is countered saying card abilities and other effects.

Sometomes you just see the term effect, some times game effect and some times card ablility. When reading the rules, if often seems lige game effect is used as meaning card ability, but again it is not clear if that is the intent.

Using my own example of generics and specifics, Card Abilities are game effects, but game effects are not necessarily Card Ablilities. Missions can also produce game effects. What we are disagreeing on is wether the rules also counts as game effects. I have my oppinion, but hopefully now we will get an answer from FFG.

If missions and other non card abilities are counted as game effects there is no reason to exclude other rules as game effects. Everything in the game is a rule regardless where they come from. I've already shown that asteroids have been referee to as a game effect with the faq on stealth device.

As for this may thing I'll repeat what I said above here. The ability to fire secondary weapons is an optional thing as well, you don't have to fire them but in order to do so you must spend the target lock (when told to do so), in order to get the reroll from target lock you must spend it to do so as well, the player just has the option to not use that ability just like theplayer has the option to not fire seconsary weapons.

25 minutes ago, Oberron said:

As for this may thing I'll repeat what I said above here. The ability to fire secondary weapons is an optional thing as well, you don't have to fire them but in order to do so you must spend the target lock (when told to do so), in order to get the reroll from target lock you must spend it to do so as well, the player just has the option to not use that ability just like theplayer has the option to not fire seconsary weapons.

Firing Secondary Weapons is optional. You choose to do that at step 1.ii of the attack. Spending the Target Lock to do so is not. At step 1.iv, if you have chosen a weapon that has a cost to be fired, you must pay it. At that point, there is no choice.

So, using the secondary weapon is the choice, and the effect is the different things that come with it, including (but not limited to) dice being thrown, range of the attack, and cost. Saying that spending the lock is a choice is the same as saying that not firing at range 1 with a tlt is a choice. They come with the choice of firing a given secondary weapon. You may (choice) choose X Torpedoes at step 1.ii to (effect) fire them. If you do, at step 1.iv you must (here is when you are instructed) spend the target lock

The normal use of Target Locks is that you may (choice) spend the target lock to (effect) reroll all dice you want.

Quite different.

1 hour ago, Willy Jarque said:

Firing Secondary Weapons is optional. You choose to do that at step 1.ii of the attack. Spending the Target Lock to do so is not. At step 1.iv, if you have chosen a weapon that has a cost to be fired, you must pay it. At that point, there is no choice.

So, using the secondary weapon is the choice, and the effect is the different things that come with it, including (but not limited to) dice being thrown, range of the attack, and cost. Saying that spending the lock is a choice is the same as saying that not firing at range 1 with a tlt is a choice. They come with the choice of firing a given secondary weapon. You may (choice) choose X Torpedoes at step 1.ii to (effect) fire them. If you do, at step 1.iv you must (here is when you are instructed) spend the target lock

The normal use of Target Locks is that you may (choice) spend the target lock to (effect) reroll all dice you want.

Quite different.

If you choose to reroll your dice with the target lock during the modify dice step you must spend the target lock. Same thing.

And now show me where must and may matters with spending target locks with targeting synchronizer. Because examples of both must and may have been used with it

6 hours ago, Oberron said:

You know what makes a compelling argument? Evidence and showing a person is wrong instead of just saying they are wrong.

You can't use reason and evidence against someone who isn't being reasonable. You have provided no rational basis for your assertion while basic linguistics clearly demonstrated mine. It's less that you're wrong and more that there is no reason to think that you could be right.

Quote

In order to get the rerolls from a target lock you are ordered to spend it just like some secondary weapons do.

Nope. Literally not a thing that happens or otherwise exists. This is where your assertion falls down flat. You are never 'ordered' to spend a target lock to reroll your dice during an attack. You're making that up, and like I said, you can't use reason against someone who isn't using reason to argue.

9 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Well, I just re-sent it today.

I was really hoping this would be covered in the FAQ. It's a pretty obvious question about the card that's not clear just from reading it.

Frank is up to the emails that I sent in after the U-Wing and Striker dropped. I'm guessing he'll hit my questions from Wave 10 proper in the next day or two.

14 hours ago, Oberron said:

If you choose to reroll your dice with the target lock during the modify dice step you must spend the target lock. Same thing.

And now show me where must and may matters with spending target locks with targeting synchronizer. Because examples of both must and may have been used with it

You can't re-write the rules just to make your point.

And it has been told before: must and may matters because of the 'instruct' part of the wording. Please, don't ask things that have already been answered.

7 hours ago, Willy Jarque said:

You can't re-write the rules just to make your point.

And it has been told before: must and may matters because of the 'instruct' part of the wording. Please, don't ask things that have already been answered.

Not rewriting anything. Just rephrase in it to show that even though getting a reroll is optional, just like firing a secondary weapon, the cost of doing so is still spending a target lock.

Definition of instruct

transitive verb

1: to give knowledge to : teach,train

2: to provide with authoritative information or advice

3: to give an order or command to

Instruct as defined above by merria m webster does not care about must or may, and even InquisitorM said

"When the game rules say that you can spend a target lock to reroll your attack dice, they are instructing you in the options you have available."

The option Available to us is you may spend a target lock you have on the defender to reroll attack dice.

Instructions do not have to always be a must.

so I'll ask again show me where must and may matter on targeting synchronizer.

33 minutes ago, Oberron said:

Instruct as defined above by merria m webster does not care about must or may, and even InquisitorM said

"When the game rules say that you can spend a target lock to reroll your attack dice, they are instructing you in the options you have available."

The option Available to us is you may spend a target lock you have on the defender to reroll attack dice.

Instructions do not have to always be a must.

so I'll ask again show me where must and may matter on targeting synchronizer.

Quote

If a game effect instructs that ship to spend a target lock, it may spend your target lock instead.

We did this already, but here you go again. The context here excludes voluntary expenditures, since 'instructed to' conforms to a required directive. Just because instruct can be used as a directive and as provided information, you cannot say that both are valid in all contexts. In this case, 'instructed to' is explicitly in the context of an order and not informative. It is the very claim that it could be informative that is seen you you simple 'rewriting' language to fit your narrative rather than objectively reading the situation.

2 hours ago, InquisitorM said:

We did this already, but here you go again. The context here excludes voluntary expenditures, since 'instructed to' conforms to a required directive. Just because instruct can be used as a directive and as provided information, you cannot say that both are valid in all contexts. In this case, 'instructed to' is explicitly in the context of an order and not informative. It is the very claim that it could be informative that is seen you you simple 'rewriting' language to fit your narrative rather than objectively reading the situation.

You have no proof is excludes anything since there is nothing in the text that you quoted says this. You cherry picking and deciding that a word can only mean "must" when that doesn't even appear in either definition we have posted or the rule of the card is wrong. In order to get the reroll from a target lock it is not voluntary to spend it to do so, it is only voluntary if you want the reroll. You yourself even said it was an instruction.

You do agree that in order to get the reroll you have to spend the target lock correct?