3 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

I think you're giving yourself a handicap if that's the way you approach it. Hangar Bay seems like a great answer to the "I really want to play this squad but X is its Kryptonite" problem that a lot of people seem to have. You bring that squad and a second squad that's solid overall but it is good against the first list's weakness. If Kryptonite isn't on the menu, you choose your first list. Otherwise you pick the second.

He's saying that's what ends up happening if you're overly restrictive with what can be shared across lists. Having played a ton of games with similar systems, I'll suggest he's probably correct.

2 hours ago, PhantomFO said:

The obvious downside is that it will double the price of list-building for new players entering their first tourney.

Thoughts?

IIRC the hanger bay rules for the system opens this year allows you to just bring a single list if you want, with the downside of not getting to choose a different list if your opponent has a counter.

1 hour ago, Vineheart01 said:

im for it as long as they dont go ridiculous with the limitations.

Ive heard several local places wanting to adapt it and state "no dupe cards or pilots, period" - im sorry but that is dang near impossible to make 2 viable lists without a SINGLE repeat card. No unique dupes im fine with, no dupes period? yeah i'll have a scrap list for my 2nd list then most likely.

That's not a local adaptation. That's literally the rule for the hanger bay format for the system open this year. No duplicates betwen lists. If you have Sabine pilot in one list, no sabine crew or sabine pilot in another ship. If you have a y-wing in one list, no y-wing in the other list. Got PTL in one? Can't use it in the other. And so on.

10 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

He's saying that's what ends up happening if you're overly restrictive with what can be shared across lists. Having played a ton of games with similar systems, I'll suggest he's probably correct.

Having played in the even this year, it didn't seem to be an issue. I could see it being more of an issue if you were trying to stick to the same faction for each squad though.

If there's no restrictions you just end up having people bring squads that are mostly the same except for some minor tweaks. For example, your ace list that lives or dies by going last doesn't need VI on one of its ships and a three point bid when you see that neither of your opponent's squads have anything over PS7.

26 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

Formats like this are cool, but X-Wing's point system doesn't work with it very well. The points are a little overly granular for things to fit together in unique and interesting ways. When you've got ships that regularly cross the 34 point mark, its really not fun to try and swap things out on the fly. I'd be super on board with this if the game had a different points structure though.

Upgrades are adjustable too. So you don't have to lock each ship into a certain point total.

Just now, arkhamssaber said:

Upgrades are adjustable too. So you don't have to lock each ship into a certain point total.

To a degree. Enough ships have enough fixes that upgrades tend to come in chunks and often if you want to make any real adjustments you have to do things like swap a Tala for a Bandit or something like that. It's not impossible, its just kind of ugly and not as open and interesting as it should be. I've just not found sideboards work particularly well with point systems unless they're absurdly large. Granular point systems tend to do better with multi-list formats instead. Don't get me wrong, I prefer sideboards; they just struggle unless the points system is really built to make them seamless.

I'd love to see more hanger bay type events. Geta me thinking up more ideas, and I can have one scum and one rebel list pretty easily assembled.

3 hours ago, PhantomFO said:

Having had my first taste of the format this weekend, I have to say I really liked it a lot.

For those who aren't familiar, the Hangar Bay format has you build two unique lists. You cannot duplicate any pilots, ship models, or upgrades between the two lists, so using VI in one list will lock you out of it in a second. You reveal both lists to your opponent at the start of setup, designate them as either #1 or #2, and decide which one to play by setting a maneuver dial.

My favorite part of the format is how it helps mitigate some of the Rock-Paper-Scissors issues that comes up during list building. If your opponent brings a list that you would be weak against, you have a backup list that you can turn to instead.

As an example, I ran a Heragator/Ahsoka list alongside a Kylo Oicunn/Quickdraw list. I had planned to use the Hera list as my primary, and was able to do so in my first match. However, my next two opponents had PS9+ in both of their lists, making Ahsoka vulnerable. So instead, I ran my Oicunn list.

I'm thinking that making this a default format might also help alleviate some of the issues involved in a specific list becoming THE LIST. You can have your list that you think will do well against Parattani, and still have a list capable of fighting all the things that are problematic for your first list.

The obvious downside is that it will double the price of list-building for new players entering their first tourney.

Thoughts?

I'm a little biased; I think anything besides 100/6 should be the new tourney format. I'm partial to rotating missions which would include a 100/6 mission. however, I think hanger bay could be good as well. With the card lock-out it does force some build variety. It would potentially allow you to go all in on a "silver bullet build" to blow a specific matchup out of the water while having a back-up list for other match-ups which I think is nice.

I'm not sure I like this as I couldn't run a flight of TIES if no ships can be repeated.

I also feel you should be locked into one faction.

I do like the concept of this play style however.

4 minutes ago, Gadgetron said:

I'm not sure I like this as I couldn't run a flight of TIES if no ships can be repeated.

I also feel you should be locked into one faction.

I do like the concept of this play style however.

You could run one squad of TIE Fighters but your other squad couldn't have any. Upgrades, ships, and unique names need to not be shared between your squads. Within the same squad you are free to use duplicates (following the normal rules for doing so).

4 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

You could run one squad of TIE Fighters but your other squad couldn't have any. Upgrades, ships, and unique names need to not be shared between your squads. Within the same squad you are free to use duplicates (following the normal rules for doing so).

OHHHH Ok, yea, I like this!

2 hours ago, WWHSD said:

If there's no restrictions you just end up having people bring squads that are mostly the same except for some minor tweaks. For example, your ace list that lives or dies by going last doesn't need VI on one of its ships and a three point bid when you see that neither of your opponent's squads have anything over PS7.

I'm not sure what ace list doesn't include a unique pilot or three.

1 minute ago, LunarSol said:

I'm not sure what ace list doesn't include a unique pilot or three.

Not being able to share uniques between squads would be a restriction.

Just now, WWHSD said:

Not being able to share uniques between squads would be a restriction.

I'm not arguing it should be unrestricted, I'm saying the current restrictions are too restrictive. Limiting uniques is enough to force diversity. Allowing for no crossover what so ever is a bit too far.

7 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

I'm not arguing it should be unrestricted, I'm saying the current restrictions are too restrictive. Limiting uniques is enough to force diversity. Allowing for no crossover what so ever is a bit too far.

We've seen two different versions of hanger bay so far (last year you simply had to have 2 lists from different factions, which no other restrictions as I recall), this year is the distinct rule. Next year will probably be something else.

10 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

I'm not arguing it should be unrestricted, I'm saying the current restrictions are too restrictive. Limiting uniques is enough to force diversity. Allowing for no crossover what so ever is a bit too far.

It's not as bad as it seems at first. If you are running different factions and different types of squads the "no sharing" restriction isn't actually all that restrictive.

2 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

It's not as bad as it seems at first. If you are running different factions and different types of squads the "no sharing" restriction isn't actually all that restrictive.

I don't think its terrible, I just think its unnecessarily restrictive. I'd just find a limit on uniques more thematic and interesting is all.

My favorite is reverse hangar bay where you bring 2 lists and the opponent gets to choose which one you fly. It prevents the problem of someone just bringing one strong list and flying it all day and helps with meta fatigue. Don't want to play Parattani? Now you don't have to, just choose the other list.

5 hours ago, PhantomFO said:

Having had my first taste of the format this weekend, I have to say I really liked it a lot.

For those who aren't familiar, the Hangar Bay format has you build two unique lists. You cannot duplicate any pilots, ship models, or upgrades between the two lists, so using VI in one list will lock you out of it in a second. You reveal both lists to your opponent at the start of setup, designate them as either #1 or #2, and decide which one to play by setting a maneuver dial.

My favorite part of the format is how it helps mitigate some of the Rock-Paper-Scissors issues that comes up during list building. If your opponent brings a list that you would be weak against, you have a backup list that you can turn to instead.

As an example, I ran a Heragator/Ahsoka list alongside a Kylo Oicunn/Quickdraw list. I had planned to use the Hera list as my primary, and was able to do so in my first match. However, my next two opponents had PS9+ in both of their lists, making Ahsoka vulnerable. So instead, I ran my Oicunn list.

I'm thinking that making this a default format might also help alleviate some of the issues involved in a specific list becoming THE LIST. You can have your list that you think will do well against Parattani, and still have a list capable of fighting all the things that are problematic for your first list.

The obvious downside is that it will double the price of list-building for new players entering their first tourney.

Thoughts?

Yes, it Should.

Something I really enjoyed about Hangar Bay: Some people might enjoy playing the same list 5 or 6 times over the course of a single event, but it can get a bit boring - especially if things aren't going your way. With that freedom comes the opportunity for a bit of tinkering on the fly. You can take two completely different lists, and when you see what your opponent is fielding, decide which to go with. Do I go with the swarm this round, or do I take the alpha strike?

And best of all, it helps cut out those mirror matches!

I love the idea of the reverse hanger. Definitely gives a different feel to the matches. My concern would be having to lug around two physical sets of ships. I've only made it to a handful of tournaments and found them to be pretty cramped. I wouldn't want to keep up with yet another case and at any of the events I've been at.

31 minutes ago, Makaze said:

My favorite is reverse hangar bay where you bring 2 lists and the opponent gets to choose which one you fly. It prevents the problem of someone just bringing one strong list and flying it all day and helps with meta fatigue. Don't want to play Parattani? Now you don't have to, just choose the other list.

So you bring parattani and dengaroo? (pre-nerf of course, and if you want to be a jerk)

2 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

So you bring parattani and dengaroo? (pre-nerf of course, and if you want to be a jerk)

There's some duplication there

3 hours ago, WWHSD said:

I think you're giving yourself a handicap if that's the way you approach it. Hangar Bay seems like a great answer to the "I really want to play this squad but X is its Kryptonite" problem that a lot of people seem to have. You bring that squad and a second squad that's solid overall but it is good against the first list's weakness. If Kryptonite isn't on the menu, you choose your first list. Otherwise you pick the second.

It may be handicapping yourself if you effectively bring on squadron for your two but why prevent that with undo restrictions? While you probably should want to distinct squadrons there can easily be upgrades, and maybe even ships, you'd want to use in either of them but forcing them all into one just means you make a favorite and then have the leftovers. For those leftovers to do anything you'd better hope they are a real hard counter to something but then if your opponent has that something they may still throw the Paper at you on the assumption that you clearly don't want to play Scissors but may think that just having it will keep them from throwing Paper.

3 hours ago, arkhamssaber said:

I would rather see another variant to the current hanger bay format.

Each person brings 200pts worth of ships and upgrades to the event. Each round the players view each other's pool. They then secretly build a 100pt squad.

NO. That would just take far too long or you're just looking at some number of flights which you'll later combine into the full squadron. I get 200 points worth of ships so maybe I'll just look at them in blocks of 25, 33, or 50 points with some filler ships and upgrades I could shuffle around to make the points work out. In any case it would really slow things down.

The "reverse hangar bay" where you pick what your opponent flies may be ok if you're doing it for purely recreational purposes but it REALLY punishes anyone who can't build two good squadrons. Throw in a mountain of restrictions you run into those same issues we had earlier where one may obviously be the prefered squadron; of course doing away with restrictions means you might as well do away with the idea all together as your choices will be between two clones.

15 minutes ago, Lobokai said:

There's some duplication there

in a non-Distinct one clearly.

41 minutes ago, StevenO said:

It may be handicapping yourself if you effectively bring on squadron for your two but why prevent that with undo restrictions? While you probably should want to distinct squadrons there can easily be upgrades, and maybe even ships, you'd want to use in either of them but forcing them all into one just means you make a favorite and then have the leftovers. For those leftovers to do anything you'd better hope they are a real hard counter to something but then if your opponent has that something they may still throw the Paper at you on the assumption that you clearly don't want to play Scissors but may think that just having it will keep them from throwing Paper.

Not really. You can still have some strong combinations without duplicating any upgrades. The Endor finals consisted of Paratanni vs two Bandits with tracers, two FCS B-Wings and a Stresshog. There was not a single upgrade used in both lists.

As another example, after looking at List Juggler, here's the top 4 from the Cardiff regional:

Miranda Doni + Conner Net + Ion Bombs + Thermal Detonators + Twin Laser Turret + Sabine Wren + Extra Munitions + Homing Missiles + Advanced SLAM
Warden Squadron Pilot + Twin Laser Turret + Extra Munitions + Advanced SLAM + Cluster Mines + Conner Net + C-3PO

Omega Leader + Juke + Comm Relay
Whisper + Agent Kallus + Fire-Control System + Advanced Cloaking Device + Veteran Instincts
Captain Yorr + Collision Detector + Emperor Palpatine

Dengar + Lone Wolf + Plasma Torpedoes + Zuckuss + Overclocked R4 + Scavenger Crane + Counter-Measures + Punishing One
Manaroo + Push the Limit + Gonk + R5-P8 + Feedback Array + Engine Upgrade

Bossk + Crack Shot + Homing Missiles + Dengar + 4-Lom + Zuckuss + Guidance Chips
Ketsu Onyo + Push the Limit + K4 Security Droid + Shadow Caster + Engine Upgrade

These four lists were the top four out of 132 players. The only upgrade that is shared between different factions is the Homing Missile on both Miranda and Bossk. The Scum lists have a bit more overlap (Dengar, Zuckuss, PTL and Engine Upgrade) but that wouldn't matter in a Hanger Bay format due to restrictions against having two squads of the same faction.