I think I enjoy running Vassal Tournaments more than I enjoy playing Vassal games, so it's time for yet another oddball tournament to help us explore how the Meta work. Actually, I'm not quite sure the last time we held a "normal" tournament on the forums. And the World Cup is almost over, so let's run another tournament! But first, a story:

Quote

Once upon a time, there was a powerful Sultan who ruled over a large amount of land. The Sultan had two sons, whom he loved with all his heart. Yet, he could see that they were prideful, and sought to teach them humility. Yet for all his efforts, he felt that he never truly succeeded.

So, on his death bed, he knew that his sons would race on their horses to his capital and he willed "My son whose horse crossed through the capital gates last would be the new Sultan, and inherit all my land and titles."

Now, runners loyal to both the brothers brought news of the Sultans will to them, and as they approached the capital they both stopped in the last town on the outskirts to wait. At first they each tried to trick the other, each telling the other that their father clearly favored the other one and that he should race ahead to greet the dying Sultan. But soon it became apparent to both that they each knew about the will. And so they remained, waiting in the town for 3 days and nights.

Finally, at the dawn of the fourth day, the youngest son approached the oldest with a solution. Soon, both had jumped onto a horse and were riding as fast as they could toward the capital.

For you see, each son had climbed upon the OTHER son's horse, and whoever reached the capital gates first would ensure that his own horse was last.

And THAT is the gimmick we are going to do with this tournament. Each player will create a list, and play the first round with it. Then for the remaining rounds they will give that list to the other player, and receive the list they will be playing from them.

A few ground rules on list building, just to keep things sane:

1. 400 point lists - at least 390 must be spent. No 300 point bids.
2. A maximum of 2 total flotillas.
3. A minimum of 66 points of squadrons per list. This is so that squadron and anti-squadron upgrades can't be purposefully wasted.
4. Speaking of purposefully wasted, upgrades should be awful but usable. Minister Tua should come with a defensive retrofit, for example, and not just be a "dead 2 points". No Damage Control Officer on a Contain-less ship. Etc.
5. Finally, your objective selection only is for your first round. In later rounds your opponent gets to pick the objectives to go with the awful list you designed for them.

We'll be playing Basic Structure - up to 32 player with just 3 rounds, no cut. Should go relatively fast. Because we are from around the world, there will be a 2 week play time per round. First round pairings will be random.

I'm sure I'm forgetting some stuff, but feel free to sign up now and start thinking of your list. We'll start Saturday 18th.

Reserved for record keeping.

I'm in! So we are trying to make "bad" lists?

And the creator if the "winning" list shall be publically shamed for creating such an unbeatable list...

Count me in.

This is so cool!!! Count me in!!

Guess what opponent?

Yv666's, that's what!

Rofl this is awesome.

That is going to be hilarious!

One question though..

51 minutes ago, BiggsIRL said:

Speaking of purposefully wasted, upgrades should be awful but usable. Minister Tua should come with a defensive retrofit, for example, and not just be a "dead 2 points".

Can you define "usable" better? As I can put Needa on Gozanti to give it double-evade (or have 4 BCC flotillas to support a single bomber (if bomber presence is a requirement)), but it's just plain evil.

1 minute ago, pt106 said:

That is going to be hilarious!

One question though..

Can you define "usable" better? As I can put Needa on Gozanti to give it double-evade, but it's just plain evil.

Its like pornography. You know it when you see it.

20 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

Its like pornography. You know it when you see it.

Well... Just to show how bad things can be (and this is not a worst possible list by any margin)

You see it, do you know it?

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 391/400

Commander: Grand Moff Tarkin

Assault Objective: Custom Objective
Defense Objective: Custom Objective
Navigation Objective: Custom Objective

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Commandant Aresko ( 7 points)
- Rapid Launch Bays ( 6 points)
- Bomber Command Center ( 8 points)
= 44 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Wulff Yularen ( 7 points)
- Rapid Launch Bays ( 6 points)
- Bomber Command Center ( 8 points)
= 44 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Damage Control Officer ( 5 points)
- Rapid Launch Bays ( 6 points)
- Bomber Command Center ( 8 points)
= 42 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Damage Control Officer ( 5 points)
- Rapid Launch Bays ( 6 points)
- Bomber Command Center ( 8 points)
= 42 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Interdictor-class Suppression Refit (90 points)
- Grand Moff Tarkin ( 38 points)
- Admiral Chiraneau ( 10 points)
- Point-Defense Reroute ( 5 points)
- Overload Pulse ( 8 points)
- G7-X Grav Well Projector ( 2 points)
= 153 total ship cost

1 TIE Fighter Squadron ( 8 points)
3 Aggressor Assault Fighters ( 48 points)
1 Gamma Squadron ( 10 points)

I almost feel that players should be forced to play at least one round with their own list just to keep them somewhat honest (as in don't bring a turtle into a horse fight)

39 minutes ago, SkyCake said:

This is so cool!!! Count me in!!

Guess what opponent?

Yv666's, that's what!

Can I have dibs!!

13 minutes ago, pt106 said:

Well... Just to show how bad things can be (and this is not a worst possible list by any margin)

You see it, do you know it?

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 391/400

Commander: Grand Moff Tarkin

Assault Objective: Custom Objective
Defense Objective: Custom Objective
Navigation Objective: Custom Objective

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Commandant Aresko ( 7 points)
- Rapid Launch Bays ( 6 points)
- Bomber Command Center ( 8 points)
= 44 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Wulff Yularen ( 7 points)
- Rapid Launch Bays ( 6 points)
- Bomber Command Center ( 8 points)
= 44 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Damage Control Officer ( 5 points)
- Rapid Launch Bays ( 6 points)
- Bomber Command Center ( 8 points)
= 42 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Damage Control Officer ( 5 points)
- Rapid Launch Bays ( 6 points)
- Bomber Command Center ( 8 points)
= 42 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Interdictor-class Suppression Refit (90 points)
- Grand Moff Tarkin ( 38 points)
- Admiral Chiraneau ( 10 points)
- Point-Defense Reroute ( 5 points)
- Overload Pulse ( 8 points)
- G7-X Grav Well Projector ( 2 points)
= 153 total ship cost

1 TIE Fighter Squadron ( 8 points)
3 Aggressor Assault Fighters ( 48 points)
1 Gamma Squadron ( 10 points)

I almost feel that players should be forced to play at least one round with their own list just to keep them somewhat honest (as in don't bring a turtle into a horse fight)

Only thing i really call foul on is DCO on a ship with no contain. Also Gamma squad is gonna roll hit/crit every time.

1 minute ago, Madaghmire said:

Only thing i really call foul on is DCO on a ship with no contain. Also Gamma squad is gonna roll hit/crit every time.

Yeah, that was a last minute change from Engineering Captain, forgot about a need for Contain. And yes, it will - as long as it survives.

32 minutes ago, pt106 said:

Well... Just to show how bad things can be (and this is not a worst possible list by any margin)

You see it, do you know it?

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 391/400

Commander: Grand Moff Tarkin

Assault Objective: Custom Objective
Defense Objective: Custom Objective
Navigation Objective: Custom Objective

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Commandant Aresko ( 7 points)
- Rapid Launch Bays ( 6 points)
- Bomber Command Center ( 8 points)
= 44 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Wulff Yularen ( 7 points)
- Rapid Launch Bays ( 6 points)
- Bomber Command Center ( 8 points)
= 44 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Damage Control Officer ( 5 points)
- Rapid Launch Bays ( 6 points)
- Bomber Command Center ( 8 points)
= 42 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Damage Control Officer ( 5 points)
- Rapid Launch Bays ( 6 points)
- Bomber Command Center ( 8 points)
= 42 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Interdictor-class Suppression Refit (90 points)
- Grand Moff Tarkin ( 38 points)
- Admiral Chiraneau ( 10 points)
- Point-Defense Reroute ( 5 points)
- Overload Pulse ( 8 points)
- G7-X Grav Well Projector ( 2 points)
= 153 total ship cost

1 TIE Fighter Squadron ( 8 points)
3 Aggressor Assault Fighters ( 48 points)
1 Gamma Squadron ( 10 points)

I almost feel that players should be forced to play at least one round with their own list just to keep them somewhat honest (as in don't bring a turtle into a horse fight)

Needs more Konstantine.

Biggs, this sounds awesome, and I really wish I could play. I'll definitely be watching it though.

Verrrrry interesting!

So....you'll be designing the list you'll be playing against for all 3 games. Just with a different "toolkit" each time to figure out the puzzle you've created for yourself.....

I'm afraid I'll have to pass, at least for now - will be away until the beginning of April. But I'll be watching.....if the tourney doesn't fill maybe I will step in. Not that it should be a problem!

Instead of purposefully wasting good upgrades. Why not try and showcase poor upgrades.

I mean adding cluster bombs to every ship isn't going to make your opponent happy, but at least they might find some utility in it. Lets get these crap cards used!

Purposefully trying to make a bad fleet - and then force someone to play it - doesn't seem interesting at all.

If it was more along the lines of making slightly sub-optimal fleets, trying to showcase little-used upgrades or commanders, then I'd be game.

But what's the fun in doing an Ackbar 4xCombat Retrofit with Intel Officers, BCCs and no bombers?

Does not compute.

I LOVE THE IDEA OF ANOTHER TOURNAMENT!!

But what's that now? Make a purposefully bad list and give to your opponent?

What about if there was at least some incentive not to make it purely dreadful? I am pretty sure the Sultan's race wouldn't have worked if his sons knew in advance they'd be riding each others horses.

EG

• Before the game roll 1 Blue, on a Crit you suffer your own list.
• You must use your own list if you reach the Semi Finals / Finals

or

• Everyone makes a list and throws it into the pot, and they're randomly drawn out

or

• Biggs (or nominees) makes 8 lists and you pick one and reveal it when the game starts

or a dozen other ideas that I am sure people could come up with that would make the games more playable without damaging the quirkiness of the concept.

Just a suggestion

I love the idea, it sounds like fun and is like to see how it shakes out.

That said, I can see where Gink and GK are coming from. Another way to approach what you're trying to get at for a future tourney might be a traditional format with liberal use of the ban hammer: no Demo, no Yavaris, if you took Rieekan you can't have >50 points in unique squadrons, no Most Wanted, etc. Or just take it one step further and require suboptimal fleets, wholly subject to the TO's subjective approval.

2 hours ago, pt106 said:

Well... Just to show how bad things can be (and this is not a worst possible list by any margin)

You see it, do you know it?

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 391/400

Commander: Grand Moff Tarkin

Assault Objective: Custom Objective
Defense Objective: Custom Objective
Navigation Objective: Custom Objective

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Commandant Aresko ( 7 points)
- Rapid Launch Bays ( 6 points)
- Bomber Command Center ( 8 points)
= 44 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Wulff Yularen ( 7 points)
- Rapid Launch Bays ( 6 points)
- Bomber Command Center ( 8 points)
= 44 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Damage Control Officer ( 5 points)
- Rapid Launch Bays ( 6 points)
- Bomber Command Center ( 8 points)
= 42 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Damage Control Officer ( 5 points)
- Rapid Launch Bays ( 6 points)
- Bomber Command Center ( 8 points)
= 42 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Interdictor-class Suppression Refit (90 points)
- Grand Moff Tarkin ( 38 points)
- Admiral Chiraneau ( 10 points)
- Point-Defense Reroute ( 5 points)
- Overload Pulse ( 8 points)
- G7-X Grav Well Projector ( 2 points)
= 153 total ship cost

1 TIE Fighter Squadron ( 8 points)
3 Aggressor Assault Fighters ( 48 points)
1 Gamma Squadron ( 10 points)

I almost feel that players should be forced to play at least one round with their own list just to keep them somewhat honest (as in don't bring a turtle into a horse fight)

I see it. And it is pornography. You cannot use all the RLB. There are only 5 squads but 8 can be RLBed.

An aspect of this list I see, but I am not sure whether it is two people in action are Wulff, Aresko on command 1 ships in combination with Tarkin. You cannot make use of Tarkin and the two captains. However, one could agrgue that you could use them to get other tokens than the ones you spawn via Tarkin which might in fact help in some situations. Hmm, ok, probably the people here are merely dancing nude. No pornography. Art!

Wait... I'm exactly 3/4 of a bottle of cheap ass Bordeaux in right now, but isn't the objective to have your fleet win, not win yourself??? Therefore you try to make your fleet as good as possible so that it beats you when you play??? I thought that's what the sultan was trying to do...

Also, this can totally be gamed by the pick-your-own-objectives rule. Build a fleet to 400, make it completely crippled against some objectives and choose second. All Slaved Turrets and pick AG, comes to mind.

I see the potential for abuse. I think this topic has been discussed before, and while it does sound like fun, we definitely need to find the right ruleset to avoid issues, otherwise might as well use a random fleet generator.

9 minutes ago, SkyCake said:

Wait... I'm exactly 3/4 of a bottle of cheap ass Bordeaux in right now, but isn't the objective to have your fleet win, not win yourself??? Therefore you try to make your fleet as good as possible so that it beats you when you play??? I thought that's what the sultan was trying to do...

This also causes issues, since if you want your opponent to win, it's rather easy to throw a game. However, with you both trying to throw the game, you probably wont even end up shooting each other. Say I pick 1st player, then kite so my opponent with my fleet wins 6-5. There is nothing he can do, except fly his ships off the board to make his fleet win, in which case the 1st player needs to do the same. It gets absurd fast.

I think something along the lines of either certain banned upgrades. Or a pool of upgrades which you must pick a certain number to use? Maybe both?

13 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Also, this can totally be gamed by the pick-your-own-objectives rule. Build a fleet to 400, make it completely crippled against some objectives and choose second. All Slaved Turrets and pick AG, comes to mind.

Well you choose the objectives the fleet your opponent gives you, but the first player still chooses the objective you play. So sure you have me slaved turrets, but I won't pick AG as my red then.

I was initially thinking as Skycake did, for some reason - now that I think about it more, I think the original version maybe open to abuse too much, as others have pointed out.

What if each player submits a list, and both lists and opponents are randomized each round. Both the player's victories and the lists's victories are counted equally in the end.

wait, hmmm...while fun that doesn't encourage "bad" lists and underused upgrades. Hmmm...back to the drawing board?

am i too late? i wanna play too!

although it does seem the tournament would be more interesting with "sub-optimal" lists rather than crappy ones...