Ive been a part of the Dark Heresy fan community since the initial release of the game (not the special edition, as I was unaware the game was even being made other then a slight comment at Origins a few years back, and only found the game by accident in January 2008 when looking up new release information for WFRP 2E on the Black Industries page). So I have been over many, many of the rules, fan supplements, free PDFs and all the Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader books released to date (except Damned Cities, which seems to be suffer from the Haarlock Curse of non shipping, **** you Erasmus). So it isnt like I dont like the game or I dont thing it works in its current state. No, it is something else that is currently bugging me.

To me it seems that some of the origins (Schola Progenium, Mind Cleanse) would fit better as background packages and some of the background packages would better fit as origins (Wyrd, Warp Touched, Untouchable) or origin modifiers. And Navigator from RT should be a origin with its own "advanced elite background package".

Background packages as i understand them are a collection of modifiers to skills, talents, characteristics and other attributes that a character has gained from previous encounters and experiences, whereas untouchable and wyrd are usually aspects gained at birth or from birth. ie, you are born that way. You train to be a guardsman, but you are born a navigator.

I think the Hive Mutant is the prime example of this. It is an optional alternate origin for Hive World. I think the same should be for Noble Born, as a Noble Born Feral Worlder would be different then a Noble Born Hive Worlder.

So I guess I am asking for some one to explain away to me why you cant be a Noble Born Feral World Untouchable Tranch War Veteran?

It isnt a huge issue, as I knwo the game works well as it is, but it seems to be redundant at times and at other times like the game isnt following its own internal rule logic.

Of course, I could just be using this as a subconscience excuse to write my own house rule on the subject LOL.

from france

like most advantage/ default merit and flaw etc etc j'ai have been created separetly and separatly were mostly equilibrate but when it hold over players **** comes. most players will take this package for the history they provide but some will used them has a quick avenue to power. the wwil min/max having a lot of advantage whithout or with the minimum flaws.

personnaly i wait for the players to have a story and then alows them to watch packages in accord to their backround. so in my case no noble gunslinger guil negociator.

There is only one true reason why you can't be a Noble Born Feral World Untouchable Tranch War Veteran -because the GM said you can't be one ;-) I'd say go for it, but you'd have to chose one thing about your character, is he a great chief and leader of tribes (feral worlder) or dose his house happen to own vast swaths of land or have a vested interest in that feral world for the recruitment of house troops or some such (noble born). After that, the only roadblock to leap over would be that of XP, and not all characters have to start out with 400 xp...

More seriously and to your point, the backgrounds/packages seem to work as is for the most part if you look at them in the right light. I think the part that's tripping you up is when you added that the modifiers they gave came from a characters previous encounters and experiences. Lose that part of your statement on what Background Packages are, and you'll be doing fine.

All the BP's are, in effect, are a means to modify the baseline of a characters origin no matter how such comes to pass. This is primarily for things that are simple changes and tweaks but I reckon the addition of modified origins confuses things a bit and, in my opinion, isn't necessary, but there ya go. Origins are, essentially, your characters baseline upbringing and what effects, generally speaking, it had on them. Background packages are modifiers and exceptions to the norms that, likewise, effected your character or were points where your character deviated form the norm and, as such, needed a few things changed and tweaked.

In the examples you gave, a Schola origin is best as an origin because it would have the greatest (and possibly only) major impact on the character's development. Most schola educated will have been quite young when they were turned over to the schola and even if they were a bit older, i'm sure what ever individuality or quirks they had going in were ruthlessly beaten out of them by the drill abotts. A former progenum student from a Hive world would be a lot closer in mind and outlook (and skills of course) to a former progenum student from a feral world then to a hiver who never went to a Progenum. If it were a background package, the impact it is supposed to have on those who make it through to graduation would be downplayed too much. In essence, they have too profound an impact on those who go through them for them not to be an origin. A hiver will always be a hiver and a progena will always be a progena (unless they get mind scrubed of course, but then, they're a whole new person, yay!)

The Mind Cleansed, I could see it as both an Origin (it completely rewrites you) or as a background package (it can't quite remove certain gained physical traits)... but it might be easer to keep it as an origin then as a background package. Simply make a BP for what ever world you think would have left some marks or traits on the character that need to be mechanically included, and there you go. Again, like the schola origin, the mind cleansing process might have too big of an impact on a character to be regulated to the secondary role of simple modifier for it has become who they are in all things and not just anouther somehting that helped shape them.

The Untouchable and Wyrd work better as BP's because they simply modify who and what someone is and how they would have been shaped without dominating it. After all, a wyrdling from a feral world would be a lot different then one from the upper levels of a hive. If they were made into origins, then you'd need special BPs just for them to show the difference of their environments when this is pretty much taken care of for all the other origins.

In fact, the best way to look at Origins and Background Packages is Origins represent the predominant environmental factor that shaped the character into who they are today while background Packages are amendments and accents to that final shape (whether they came about due to outside environmental events or internal aberrations from the norm is irrelevant).

As for the Noble Origin, I guess there's definitly an argument to a modified origin from all the origins to include Noble. The Noble Origin, however, and in my opinion (read: this is how i rationalize it being an Origin), is for those who are born to the great houses, the massive dynasties that span planets and have holdings all across the sector if not further. Those born into such houses and dynasties would be shaped by the house and their privilege far more and almost to the exclusion of what ever planet they were incidentally born on or which planet their family roots might be attached to. They are simply above all of that. The feral noble who is shaped by the feral world would be no noble in the eyes of these noble born as he or she would be tied to strongly to their quant feral world and not a proper member of the wealthy elite of the Imperium -he'd be nothing more then a curious animal who thinks he's people, isn't that cute. The Noble Origin is meant to represent the ultimate of privileged classes, those who exist too far above everything else to be adequately touched by it. As such, they are shaped by wholly different circumstances, circumstances no one else in the Imperium could ever hope to experience. As such, they are their own breed, divorced of all others and, thus, their own origin.

Here is hoping that Ascension adds a Rogue Trader style Origin Path for Dark Heresy chargen!

Peacekeeper_b said:

400 XP limit. If you/your GM allow(s) more initial XP for character-building, just go for it. As for backgrounds I've always allowed multiple backgrounds as long as they come with advantages and disadvantages. As both Noble Born and Feral World backgrounds have disadvantages to counter the advanatages I see no reason why you couldn't get both. As for combining Untouchable with Tranch War Veteran... Well, thats purely a question of initial XP. If someone came up with a nice story for that Noble Born Feral World Untouchable Tranch War Veteran I'd allow it, and just subract the "XP debt" from the characters first XP gain after first scenario.

Peacekeeper_b said:

This was exactly what I was thinking while reading your first post.

I really, really like the way Rogue Trader handles this concept.

As a side note, I think that I may draw up a similar chart for Dark Heresy (somehow). Mostly because when I sat down to get my brand new players to make their first characters, they were so overwhelmed by the massive walls of text for all the background packages and such, that they just didn't bother. Having it all displayed as a flow chart would make it a bit easier to grasp

In all honesty I see the existing Mind Cleanse, Schola Progenium and Noble origins as the Imperial Worlder version of them. I would just add in the origin characteristic modifiers into the mix for these fellas and tade their origin traits on a one for one basis with the other origin used. So maybe a Feral Noble exchanges Wealthy for Iron Stomach or something of that nature.

I believe it will be a bit tougher then that to keep it all balanced and smooth and to fit as seemlessly as possible into exising material, but with a little time and effort it is doable.

I also see Wyrd, Warp Touched and Untouchable in the same vein. Like specific worlds of origins (Gun Metal City, Dusk and so forth). So you would have the option of Hive Wyrd, Void Wyrd, Feral Wyrd. Course it gets a bit redundant and silly when you are writing up origin rules for Noble Feral Mutant Wyrd, but I think its obvious where I am going.

Perhaps something as simple as adding an additional origin modifier for the cost of a fate point? You are touched or cursed by fate and the gods (God Emperor) and gain the following trait/origin modifier at the cost of one fate point.

I don't have Rogue trader. I might have to look it up if it's significantly different character set up. Although it might make a lot of sense for that game.

I think for the Mind Cleanse, Schola Progenium and Noble origins it works best as it is. For Mind Cleansed and Schola Prgenium they are distinct upbringings that will have a very different effect on how the character plays and reacts (that for people who aren't familiar with concept is going to be aided by treating them as a seperate origin).

For Nobles it makes a lot of sense. Regardless of where there home is based they are likely to have spent much of their travelling and basically in a cocooned lifestyle that is protected from the harsh world of the Hive / Imperial world / Void Ships.

This is only for describing fully conected Imperial Nobles. A feral world Noble would either be the technical ruling class of the world that may in fact never visit their own planet in their life time (or have a single bastion of opulence on the planet) or would be a noble of the native peoples that would not be a noble according the Imperial deffinition. In the same way that a character from a feudal Imperial world might well be Royalty on their own world but nothing beyond it.

Of course these could be backgrounds or a combination of alt homeworlds and backgrounds themselves.

Peacekeeper_b said:

I've actually been working up house rules for Mind Cleansed, Schola and Noble as background packages instead of origins. I'll post them if I can find them.

LuciusT said:

Here's what I worked up. It's still a draft and I'd be interested in constructive criticism...

Credo Omnissiah (100 exp)
You have been brought up to venerate the spirits of the machine and to know and trust the rites of the Machine Cult.
Skills: You gain the Common Lore (Tech) and Common Lore (Machine Cult) skills.
Talents: You gain the Technical Knock talent.
Trait: Stranger to the Cult: You see the Imperial Creed through the lens of the Cult Mechanicus and are ignorant of the common practices of the Imperial Cult. You suffer a –10 penalty on tests involving knowledge of the Imperial Creed and a –5 on Fellowship tests to interact with members of the Ecclesiarchy in formal settings.

Mind Cleansed (200 exp)
Your memories have been erased and your thought patterns altered, creating a new personality in the image of your masters desires.
Skills: You gain the Deceive and Intimidate skills.
Talents: You gain the Jaded, Orthoproxy, Pistol Training (Las) and Pistol Training (SP) talents.
Traits: Failsafe Control
Insanity: You gain 1d5+2 Insanity Points.

Noble Born (150 exp)
Characteristics: –5 WP, +5 Fel
Skills: You gain the Literacy and Speak Language (High Gothic) skills.
Talents: You gain the Peer (Nobility) and Peer (Academics, Adeptus Mechanicus, Administratum, Astropaths, Ecclesiarchy, Government, Mercantile, Military or Underworld), selecting one to reflect your families power base.
Traits: Vendetta, Wealth

Schola Progenium (200 exp)
Skills: You gain the Literacy and Speak Language (High Gothic) skills.
Talents: You gain the Basic Weapon Training (Las or SP), Melee Weapon Training (Primitive), Pistol Training (Las or SP) and Unshakable Faith talents.
Traits: Sheltered Upbringing: You suffer a –10 penalty on all Interaction tests with the worst examples of humanity.

I was gonna make a big post, but Graver and Face Eater have covered every single point I was going to make

LuciusT:

The only problem I see is with the Schola and Mind Cleansed. These two home worlds are far from an add on to a character. They very much define personality and how an individual will react and interact socially with others.

The Schola Progenium is a harshly strict militaryeligious upbringing that will have a profound and overriding effect on any personality and traits picked up before the individual is brought there. The point of the Schola Progenium is to break children and rebuild them in the image of the ideal servant of the Imperium.

Mind Cleansing is going to erase any personality traits and quirks from whatever upbringing or home world the individual was from to begin with. In this case I think the ideal way to handle quirks and traits bleeding through would be to have Mind Cleansed specific home world packages in the 100XP range that add some flavor but don't detract from the blank slate nature of the Mind Cleansed. For instance a Mind Cleansed character who was originally from a Feral world might be able to purchase the Iron Stomach (? no book at hand) trait along with getting the Survival skill, as these things are a leftover instinct from before the mind cleansing.

ItsUncertainWho said:

I understand your point, but I see Schola as an add-on to Imperial Worlder.

My original concept when I wrote these was that all characters would start with the Imperial World origin (because my campaign is limited to one planet and all characters are from that planet). These packages, then, represented ways the player could expand on their character while still starting out in the same place.

In a "normal" campaign, I would have Imperial World origin as a prerequisite for the Schola background since, in many ways, I see Schola as a extreme expression of the general Imperial World origin.

ItsUncertainWho said:

I'm taking the "leftover instinct" idea from the other way... and alsoseeing the Mind Cleansing as less "brain dead zombie" and more "functional person with amnesia and sinister conditioning."

LuciusT said:

I can see that for your campaign if it's all set on one planet. But really the Schola dominates a student's life at least as much, if not more, than their upbringing on a hive would, or forge world etc. Their only family is the Schola, their only education etc. While I can see Peacebringer's point on multiple backgrounds going into one character, for the Schola at least I see it as a definite origin, rather than background package. That said, different 'flavours' could be done with some optional skills.

Evilref said:

I agree that the Schola has a heavy influence on a character, but if we look to the black library for fluff and sources we can see in the Commissar Cain novels that some of his abilities are attributed to his youth in the hive and others to his Schola upbringing.

I am in no way saying the game doesnt work as is, Im just mainly commenting that some of the focus seems lost on what is suppose to be what.

For example, a feral worlder could easily be mind cleansed, but how does being mind cleansed alter remove the +5 S and +5 T or starting wounds? The action of the mind cleansed is a backgroun evet or action that has affected the character way after their upbringing and adolescence. Granted, being ind wiped would definately adversely affect what you know and your skills, but some things wouldnt change.

Why is hive mutant a origin, but wyrd or untouchable isnt? Again, it is more a matter of scope for me, for all know the next book will have more origins that cover these aspects in it.

Peacekeeper_b said:

I see what you are saying but surely in every case whatever they were doing for between the ages of 0-8 (for example) is of far less relevance stat and personailty wise than what happens to them in their intense schooling between the ages of 9-16 and would amount to little more than some additional character notes. The quirk for the origin is a table of what there parents did and where they were brought up so you could expand / make up your own entry for that.

Peacekeeper_b said:

I think this is the only one that I agree and even then it depends on how long it takes to mind cleanse and re-educate someone. I suppose you could have a back ground that keeps the stat line but replaces all of their previous origins traits with the mind cleansed ones but that might open to abuse.

Peacekeeper_b said:

That ones easy. A mutant is born a mutant and is going to be treated as a mutant. An untouchable might rub people up the wrong way but they aren't going to know why.

Face Eater said:

True, and I agree with that. But still, untouchable and wyrd are "previous events and experiences" they are "accidents of birth". I dont personally feel they belong in the same category as the current existing background packages.

i wrote out a list of psi levels a while ago so that you would know from an ingame perspective what psychic potential your character had. that way you'd know if they were a wyrd before you created the character. As being psychic is inherent and only latent psykers can get away with not manifesting early on you should know immediately at creation if your character is a wyrd/psyker or whatever.

I think that noble born would be a modification to the starting origin. A noble from a hive world will be different than a noble from an imperial/feral world. They will have different interests and pursuits. Their rival will generally be more specific to the place they come from (ie a noble from a hive world might have as their rival a manufacturing syndicate whilst one from a feral world will be a beast slaver that captures native animals for the beast houses).

Mind Cleansed happens after someone goes through life so it should be a modification to origin too imo. You are a hive world guardsmen who becomes mindcleansed. Mind cleansed modifies some things but it doesn't modify your starting physical characteristics (a mind cleansed from a feral world isn't going to go down in toughness and strength and up WP).

I can see why from a game perspective it would be easier to make a mind cleansed a starting origin, because you don't really want to be creating a whole new character and then cleansing it.

But then, Mind Cleansed could also be an 'alternative rank' because anyone can become mind cleansed at any time. You could take mind cleansed to remove insanities (an extreme solution but it should work mostly).

Hellebore

Hellebore said:

Let me put a different view forward about why Mind cleansed might work best as it is, as an Origin.

For the most part, an individual who is mind cleansed is completely erased save for a few echoes and ghosts lingering from their past for a bit of spice. If someone's going to go through the trouble of mind scrubbing someone else, they'll more then likely go the last mile and have them moved somewhere far from their old life and, given the vastness of the setting, unless that past needs to sow up, it's not going to. So, what we have is a an individual who has been wiped almost clean of everything and reprogrammed, become a new person. Unless there's a reason to know who or what they might have been before they were born again, essentially when the character being played first came into being, then why know it? Unless their past is going to come back to haunt them, how could that information be relevant and help the story of that character out?

Just putting forth a different view of the Mind cleansed origin and it's place. I view it as a rather major and heavy thing, something that is primary to defining the character. As it's the primary defining aspect of the character, all things should modify it. You have a lighter view of it perhaps, though i think i like that view as well.

I have been long thinking about what psychiatric sciences would be like in 40ik as that rarely if ever comes up from what i could find. The idea of a lighter mind scrubbing to remove insanity (possibly with a lot of slicing and searing of bits of the brain, proper Imperial purging of madness and all) along with the psychic and other methods, it could make for an interesting talent for purchase to cure insanity for... other problems. That could work quite nicely in my 40k universe. Thanks for the idea!

Actually when I said take mind cleansed to remove insanities I was thinking more along the lines of: you are so traumatised by your life you'd rather have the whole lot erased than continue living on another second. So it wasn't so much a light mind cleansing as a 'If I don't do this I'm going to kill myself' method of last resort. You wouldn't really go in for it just to remove your fear of insects for example.

But I do like the idea that you can have partial mind cleansings. iirc space marines used to be mind cleansed after encountering deamons because they were too valuable to just kill like guardsmen.

Hellebore

I'm afriad i have to disagree with you about Nobles as stated before. These are after all Imperial nobility and not relatives of King Olaf who's entire demense totals 23 house holds.

To take the most extreme example would a family who individually get 500geld a month allowance really have had a harsh enough upbringing to warrant +5 toughness, +5 strength and Iron Stomach. I'm not even sure that a feral World can support Imperial Nobles as we know it, the owning Nobles possible treat the planet as minor source of income and almost certainly wouldn't actually live there.

Even a hive born Noble would have a large enough property that they wouldn't even notice the cramped conditions that some of the hivers live in and even on planets where the very air is deadly their regular visits to the pleasure worlds and uncle Gladius's estate on that Imperial world mean that any differences would be anecdotal, it doesn't even say what your rival family is or your other peer so you can easily chose things that best fit.

I can see that Mind cleansing is a far more ambiguous. Yes it's know that Space Marines that happen to face down deamons get mind cleansed but it's never really gone into it more than that. Is there different qualities of mind wiping available to space marines rather than starting acolytes? What are the effects of it on the Space Marine, this being 40k I doubt it's a pleasant or exact science and lets face it, Space marines aren't exactly scholars and have massively increased lifespans so if they need to relearn how to open the door of dropship (which of course can be aided by eating Brains).

Face Eater said:

We're just going to have to agree to disagree.

from france

for me the mind cleansed character is so much a questiion of point of view that the gm must precise what it represent for him i am not familiar with the concept so i just ask question.

does it remove phobia? possible but not sure

does it remove reaction to drugs food air? i don't think

does it remove feeling towards people i don't think so it remove it but not changed it unless this new feelings is implated.

does it remove gut feelings? instinct? no unless the the subject is also becoming numb.

beyond rules i believe that the gm must first define it before letting is players to have acces to it.

i think the infiltraitor career is a good element of comparison. one that can help define this one.

my problem is when i gm is more to convince ( i ban option only at the last possibility) player to not what i consider fast acces to power but dead end option like the metallican gunslinger.