One of the things that really draws me to the game (and I'm sure many folks) is the Star Wars setting - the lore and background provides a LOT of context to the game that enriches it.

However, any time I've tried theory-crafting a list to use that...well, it kinda comes off looking terrible . Starting even with the (EU, -ish, granted) 'standard' fighter wing of an ISD of 4 squadrons TIE Fighters and 1 squadron each of TIE Bombers and TIE Interceptors...

You could make a fleet of that, easy enough - a pair of ISD-I with 'Expanded Hangar Bay's, a Gozer with Bomber Command (let's presume the Star Destroyers hand off TIE Bombers to the Gozer), and then 8x TIE Fighter, 2x TIE Interceptor and 2x TIE Bomber. With Motti as commander, that all fits, and you've even got 11 pts left to play with, but...*blech*. Don't want to try to FLY that list...

Anyone find any extremely-thematic lists that actually work in the game ?

I find Rebel swarm lists to be pretty thematic.

I posted a thematic inspired Imperial build earlier today under the title of Vader's Death Squadron. and I plan to play it against a thematic Rebel build within the next couple of days. I can post the battle results for you.

41 minutes ago, WuFame said:

I find Rebel swarm lists to be pretty thematic.

Always, always outnumbered by them every game. It's a good thing ISD's are such hellbeasts.

One of the reasons why i play 900 point fleets with 300 point fighter wings, xanderf

Idiewell beat me to it.

The problem with thematic lists is that to have to build into 400 (or 500) points. Give yourself 1000 and try to build a "thematic" fleet. It will probably work better, and that's because it's a fair approximation, in my opinion, of the size of a fleet in the EU, and some of the movies.

For a thousand points, you can get:

1 flagship: 170 points (loaded ISD, MC80 or whatever)

3-5 serious combat ships: 70-140 points (VSDs, lightly loaded ISDs, MC80s, AFMK2s, Demo, MC30s, etc)

4-8 escorts: 40-70 points (Glads, Raiders, CR90s, etc)

Flotillas and support ships as wanted (Interdictors, whatever else)

A boatload of fighters (anything from 40 squads of TIEs, to every ace in existence and more)

Now the problem is playing a 1000 point game. That would take a while.

9 minutes ago, Darth Tam said:

Idiewell beat me to it.

The problem with thematic lists is that to have to build into 400 (or 500) points. Give yourself 1000 and try to build a "thematic" fleet. It will probably work better, and that's because it's a fair approximation, in my opinion, of the size of a fleet in the EU, and some of the movies.

For a thousand points, you can get:

1 flagship: 170 points (loaded ISD, MC80 or whatever)

3-5 serious combat ships: 70-140 points (VSDs, lightly loaded ISDs, MC80s, AFMK2s, Demo, MC30s, etc)

4-8 escorts: 40-70 points (Glads, Raiders, CR90s, etc)

Flotillas and support ships as wanted (Interdictors, whatever else)

A boatload of fighters (anything from 40 squads of TIEs, to every ace in existence and more)

Now the problem is playing a 1000 point game. That would take a while.

But well worth the time :-)

3 hours ago, WuFame said:

I find Rebel swarm lists to be pretty thematic.

Not sure I'd agree with that. How many times have we seen, in movies/TV/etc, a "swarm" of Rebel ships of the same type? The CLOSEST you'd arguably get is Phoenix Squadron, but by the time they had multiple CR90s, they were (apparently) so damaged/under-crewed/under-equipped, that a single TIE Advanced basically solo'd all of them .

"Thematic" Rebel lists look, on-screen, like they'd be better represented by "no two ships of the same type"....

2 hours ago, idiewell said:

One of the reasons why i play 900 point fleets with 300 point fighter wings, xanderf

Not sure you really need to go that far - seeing what's appeared in 'Rebels', an Imperial force of just a pair of Star Destroyers seems reasonably common. Heck, 'Rogue One' only had that many (well...at once). I don't think 400 pts seems really far from what we've seen most commonly.

The issue really feels like "standard" deployments seem unusually less effective than they should be in-game. I mean, you'd assume the Empire - in deciding what to send on patrol, and what to equip it with - would put together a combination that was useful , if not reaching to the levels of 'dominating'. But 4 squadrons of TIE Fighters, 1 squadron Interceptors, and 1 squadron Bombers? What an... odd ...breakdown.

And taking anything but an ISD, what is even possible 'canonically' gets wonky. I mean, I can dig how well the Arrrrghkittens! lets the Imperials play like an MSU list, but those things can't actually carry any (*significant number of) fighters - and Imperial fighters (mostly) lack hyperdrive. So where does their support screen come from?? "Lore" breakdowns give us 6 squadrons per ISD, 2 squadrons per VSD/Glad/Interdictor, close-enough-to-1-squadron per flotilla, and at-least-4 Arrrrghkittens! to field even a SINGLE squadron of non-hyperspace-capable fighters.

Because its sentiment and sentiment is weakness

6 hours ago, xanderf said:

One of the things that really draws me to the game (and I'm sure many folks) is the Star Wars setting - the lore and background provides a LOT of context to the game that enriches it.

However, any time I've tried theory-crafting a list to use that...well, it kinda comes off looking terrible . Starting even with the (EU, -ish, granted) 'standard' fighter wing of an ISD of 4 squadrons TIE Fighters and 1 squadron each of TIE Bombers and TIE Interceptors...

You could make a fleet of that, easy enough - a pair of ISD-I with 'Expanded Hangar Bay's, a Gozer with Bomber Command (let's presume the Star Destroyers hand off TIE Bombers to the Gozer), and then 8x TIE Fighter, 2x TIE Interceptor and 2x TIE Bomber. With Motti as commander, that all fits, and you've even got 11 pts left to play with, but...*blech*. Don't want to try to FLY that list...

Anyone find any extremely-thematic lists that actually work in the game ?

You can make any thematic fleet you'd like.

You just can't fit it into a 400-pt competitive format.

The two don't mesh at all, so don't try. You'll only get frustrated.

Make 1000 pt Imperial fleet instead, then a 400 pt rebels fleet and run a custom scenario. Plenty theme.

I don't think it necessarily DOES suck. Just remember that you're not always building a fleet , or the entirety of one (just like not every "battle" in Warmachine is like thirty dudes, and the average Orkish horde in 40k probably has more than a hundred or two greenskins). Your individual Armada "fleet" is actually a smaller battle group, just part of a planetary picket (or attempt to race through it), or a small detachment sent to fight pirates/Rebels, etc, etc.

Most of what you'll see in a 400 point list is much closer to a line than a "fleet," and with that taken into consideration, something like the (linked) 14th Roving Line is very doable. You can fit an MC80, an Assault Frigate, a Nebulon-B, and a Corellian Corvette in a list with a good 120-130 points to spare, depending on configurations chosen, right? That should be plenty of points to pick up a scattering of titles and other upgrades, then still sink 70-80 points into some squadrons (anything is thematic for Rebels, but I'm a fan of buying squadrons in pairs to make them feel "neat" and not-quite-clean-cut-military, with the occasional stand-out ace or scruffy rogue helping out).

So there you go. You're not building a fleet, you're building a smaller battle group, a detachment or squadron or line. Easy-peasy lemon squeezy, right?

Let's also note that most of the time you see multiple ISDs floating around in a battle or patrolling. You cant even do a strong list with 2 ISD that isn't kinda gimpy.

The problem with thematic lists is simple..... it's a movie it's not real... it's not balanced.... it's not fair.... it would make for a sucky game for one side.... this is not the game we are looking for..... move along now....

?

To be fair, every movie scene that has even close to equal odds (i.e. Rogue One) or even a significant advantage to the Empire (i.e. Endor) the Empire gets absolutely crushed. The only time the Empire's 'thematic' fleets are succesful is when Darth Vader is involved or when the odds are insurmountably in their favour.

Seems like this is very well represented in SW:Armada

Let's not forget that the standard ISD fighter complement isn't intended for large-scale warfare but extended patrols and system occupation/pacification.

Also, let's not forget that a lot of the EU stuff is stupidly OP compared to the canon OT stuff. Firesprays, Defenders, I'm looking at you!

Also, canon or "historical" fleets in Star Wars (and reality) are rarely what you wanted to bring to the fight. It was what you could bring. So "balance" wasn't a concern as much as "existing material" for fleet composition

14 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

Let's not forget that the standard ISD fighter complement isn't intended for large-scale warfare but extended patrols and system occupation/pacification.

Also, let's not forget that a lot of the EU stuff is stupidly OP compared to the canon OT stuff. Firesprays, Defenders, I'm looking at you!

Firesprays and Defenders are cannon though. Firespray (specifically Slave 1) Is featured in both Attack of the Clones, and Clone Wars. The TIE Defender has been cannonized in Rebels.

I would also argue that 48 Fighters, 12 Bombers, and 12 interceptors/Boarding craft, plus a handful of Lamda shuttles is a reasonably daunting fighter brigade. The Clone Wars ships simply had SILLY amounts of fighters in comparison, but at the loss of the raw heavy firepower an ISD carries.

14 hours ago, Church14 said:

Also, canon or "historical" fleets in Star Wars (and reality) are rarely what you wanted to bring to the fight. It was what you could bring. So "balance" wasn't a concern as much as "existing material" for fleet composition

It's a vibe I get, and totally dig (in a way). But I was really hoping the Corellian Conflict campaign would then build on that.

IE., rather than the more tournament-esque "build a fleet to win a small handful of objectives" you'd be looking at heading down the direction more of "building a fleet that is generic enough to handle anything that can possibly happen ". Which the campaign definitely didn't do.

(Now, don't get me wrong - playing through the CC campaign has been a WAY better/more fun/more 'thematic' experience than tournament play. IT'S A HUGE IMPROVEMENT FOR THE GAME! On the flipside...man, I wish it was just a little better at allowing thematic lists...)

Not to mention for a story to be more compelling with more on the line the odds are always stacked 100 to 1 in favor of the bad guys . Unfortunately for the bad guys the script calls for them to lose which makes the odds infinity to 0 against them.

If you want a lore list then this is what you do. Let Imperials bring 1000 point list , but here's the catch Rebels get to reroll any and all dice they want to include imperial dice.

There you now got a list that matches fluff.

23 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Because its sentiment and sentiment is weakness

Dat... and many people look at the original trilogy ships first for these kinds of fleets and these are old ships that show their age and that they come from a different type of game three & four years ago.

The ONLY WAY to feel the joy, the challenges, the triumphant glory day IS STAR WARS is to do a dam-fine job of play X-WING EPIC or incorporate that HOAC stuff into a long RPG-type campaign.

2 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Snip

If you want a lore list then this is what you do. Let Imperials bring 1000 point list , but here's the catch Rebels get to reroll any and all dice they want to include imperial dice.

There you now got a list that matches fluff.

That actually seems like a fun house rule haha, but the rebels get to reroll all dice they want once would be my elaboration onto it.

Example

Imps roll a red double hit, the rebels reroll and it gets a single hit. The rebels now have to spend defense tokens, card abilities, whatever in order to make the dice be rerolled, they cant just use the rebels can reroll all dice ability again.

Sounds like a great thematic objective really

To the OP, it's because FFG cares not for lore.

They seem to have a distinct aversion to the idea that lore and game balance can in fact work together.

I dont know what you are talking about. I / we are only bulding thematic / fluffy fleets and we never found them to be sucky.

Are you one of those? You know "those" P-Gamers?

9 hours ago, DrakonLord said:

That actually seems like a fun house rule haha, but the rebels get to reroll all dice they want once would be my elaboration onto it.

Example

Imps roll a red double hit, the rebels reroll and it gets a single hit. The rebels now have to spend defense tokens, card abilities, whatever in order to make the dice be rerolled, they cant just use the rebels can reroll all dice ability again.

Sounds like a great thematic objective really

Call it plot armor format, kind of like Movie Marines for 40K with stunt doubles and everything.

I don't know, pretty sure you could whip up something reasonable out of Rebels. Phoenix Home, some cr-90s, flotillas, A-Wings, Ghost and Sato commanding? May actually do well.