I feel it's an invalid line of thought in general. The prerequisite is stated on his card, 1 enemy at distance 1-5 of 2 friendly(not ally), and the ability then kicks in. I don't mind contesting obscure wordings for fun but this one seems clear enough to me.

The answer for who resolves effects:

THE PLAYER

From RRG

If two or more of a player’s effects have the same timing, that player can resolve those effects in any order.

Bold added. So a ship is never resolving an effect what means the cc rules says nothing.

I don't recommend argue about CC rules too mich cause their consistency is not enough.

The logic I don't see is why motti effect is resolved by vader's ships and Konstantin is not. Motti doesn't say that friendly ships increases their hull value as Kons doesn't say friendly ships speeds down enemy ships.

13 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

The logic I don't see is why motti effect is resolved by vader's ships and Konstantin is not. Motti doesn't say that friendly ships increases their hull value as Kons doesn't say friendly ships speeds down enemy ships.

For a friendly ship to benefit from Motti effect, it *has* to resolve Motti's effect. Which is a continuous check of hull value (against amount of damage cards).

17 minutes ago, Jukey said:

I feel it's an invalid line of thought in general. The prerequisite is stated on his card, 1 enemy at distance 1-5 of 2 friendly(not ally), and the ability then kicks in. I don't mind contesting obscure wordings for fun but this one seems clear enough to me.

Friendly is friendly is friendly, just not when a ship tries to resolve a friendly non-owning commander effect.

Now I agree it's just a CC rule and kinda inconsequential, but Konstantine's effect is just not an effect that is resolved by friendly ships.

So who resolves Tantive IV ? Tantive or the ship who benefits from the token.

As " For a friendly ship to benefit from an effect, it *has* to resolve the effect."

What is not a rule, but maybe I didn't search enough into the RRG.

Hmm, possibly both? After all, you (the ship being given the token) do have to check for token room, I guess that could be considered resolving something. Tantive does work within CC rules btw, because friendly is friendly and the restriction is about commander effect.

It's not a rule per se, but logically that's how you play Motti : you check hull at all time resolving Motti's effect ("hull is increased"). If Motti disappears, the check goes without resolving his effect, and you die at once if damage>hull.

Another rewording of the second half of CC rule is "Commander cards have no effect on friendly ships owned by other ally players." Konstantine still works within these boundaries.

I see the point that the CC rule wording is a bit confusing when looking at it closely.

But your solution is inconsistent or at least not clear enough to effectively apply it.

To simply consider every friendly in commander card as friendly only to you is the easiest way cause it is clear.

Trying to dive more I see problems with other commander.

Sato has two different "friendly". Under your interpretation Sato works only with his ships but thanks to team's squadrons. What I would say is that could be the correct way. Under the second Sato works only with his ships and only through his squadrons what could be too.

But your "resolved by" started a chain of problems cause the lack of a straight definition.

Tantive IV could be an example.

I am not sure if Motti works as you said. The ship is not resolving Motti's skill, just checking its hull points. Motti resolve his own effect to change the value but it doesn't means the ship resolves the effect.

There are some situation where we can see the commander cards point to a friendly ship and then says "it does something" others commander don't.

Let's see Cracken. Who resolves the effect? The defender or the attacker? Obstruction force the attacker to do something so...

What happens with Riekan? Could a destroyed ship resolve an effect that keeps it "alive" to resolve that effect? Maybe but for me is easier to think that Riekan resolves the effect to keep the ship "alive".

And ACM? Does the defender check their shields values (against damage) resolving the effect as Motti's ship check their hull values resolving Motti's effect? How it works with the crit that avoid you to resolve crit effects if it is assigned to the defender? It could mean that the attacker's ACM cannot be triggered.

And back to Konstantin, are not those friendly ship checking their position? Or is the enemy who is checking? Would it mean that the enemy is resolving the effect? It checks its distance to enemy ships and its speed so as (sorry for keep adding changes but as it is not a rule rather than a logic judgement I think I can) " For a [friendly] ship to " benefit " from an effect, it *has* to resolve the effect." it would mean it is resolving the effect so could it choose to not resolve the effect?

Your logic opens a world that I think you don't want at least as it is worded right now.

But don't worry. You can play the CC as you wished so not a big deal.

We will play like the CC rule purpose was avoiding commanders to extend their skills beyond their fleets range ams after played with Dodona we will see if we house-ruled him.

37 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

I see the point that the CC rule wording is a bit confusing when looking at it closely.

But your solution is inconsistent or at least not clear enough to effectively apply it.

To simply consider every friendly in commander card as friendly only to you is the easiest way cause it is clear.

Trying to dive more I see problems with other commander.

Sato has two different "friendly". Under your interpretation Sato works only with his ships but thanks to team's squadrons. What I would say is that could be the correct way. Under the second Sato works only with his ships and only through his squadrons what could be too.

But your "resolved by" started a chain of problems cause the lack of a straight definition.

Tantive IV could be an example.

I am not sure if Motti works as you said. The ship is not resolving Motti's skill, just checking its hull points. Motti resolve his own effect to change the value but it doesn't means the ship resolves the effect.

There are some situation where we can see the commander cards point to a friendly ship and then says "it does something" others commander don't.

Let's see Cracken. Who resolves the effect? The defender or the attacker? Obstruction force the attacker to do something so...

What happens with Riekan? Could a destroyed ship resolve an effect that keeps it "alive" to resolve that effect? Maybe but for me is easier to think that Riekan resolves the effect to keep the ship "alive".

And ACM? Does the defender check their shields values (against damage) resolving the effect as Motti's ship check their hull values resolving Motti's effect? How it works with the crit that avoid you to resolve crit effects if it is assigned to the defender? It could mean that the attacker's ACM cannot be triggered.

And back to Konstantin, are not those friendly ship checking their position? Or is the enemy who is checking? Would it mean that the enemy is resolving the effect? It checks its distance to enemy ships and its speed so as (sorry for keep adding changes but as it is not a rule rather than a logic judgement I think I can) " For a [friendly] ship to " benefit " from an effect, it *has* to resolve the effect." it would mean it is resolving the effect so could it choose to not resolve the effect?

Your logic opens a world that I think you don't want at least as it is worded right now.

But don't worry. You can play the CC as you wished so not a big deal.

We will play like the CC rule purpose was avoiding commanders to extend their skills beyond their fleets range ams after played with Dodona we will see if we house-ruled him.

Motti and Rieekan are similar, their effect is resolved per ship when counting hull vs damage. In Rieekan's case, his effect is resolved by the ship whenever that count reaches 0.

Cracken's effect is resolved by a friendly ship whenever it goes speed 3 and effectively becomes obstructed (a status which is then checked against by the enemy ships when assembling the dice pool).

ACM as you describe it is a non-issue, there's no requirement for it to be triggered other than the crit die being present at the correct timing. The target ship does resolve stuff during an attack starting with the defense token step, so that DCO can trump ACM . And if there were a commander that had an effect relevant to this time stretch, like, for instance, Motti or Rieekan, then the CC rule forbids their effect to happen on non-owned ships.

Your bit on Konstantine I'm not sure I understand. Konstantine resolves something on enemy ships depending on their distance to friendly ships. The friendly ships resolve nothing .

And I'm not worried, I'm just arguing.

1 hour ago, Gowtah said:

For a friendly ship to benefit from Motti effect, it *has* to resolve Motti's effect. Which is a continuous check of hull value (against amount of damage cards).

I just said that if this works only with Motti cannot be applied to any other thing and if it is suppose work with every ship that benefit from every effect you will have problems as a lot of things produce some effect to things that (if those things *has* to resolve the effect in order to suffer/benefit from the effect) are resolving the effect with the same right than the effects owner or even more.

Anyway, whoever is suffering/benefiting from the effect IS NOT resolving the effect necessarily.

The subject is not the object even when they could be.

54 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Anyway, whoever is suffering/benefiting from the effect IS NOT resolving the effect necessarily.

The subject is not the object even when they could be

Surely, for an effect to alter the state of something, that something has to resolve it at some point. There's still no evidence contrary to the point.

That is what the CC rule intends to catch, when it's worded as it is. No resolution of commander effects on or by non-owned friendlies.

In the case of Konstantine, and Sato's squadrons as you noted (edit:only talking about Sato's ships benefitting from the presence of any friendly squads), no effect is resolved on or by said ships/squadrons. They're just... there. In both cases, the ship resolving the effect is an owned friendly, laying down the pain on an enemy.

4 minutes ago, Gowtah said:

Surely, for an effect to alter the state of something, that something has to resolve it at some point. There's still no evidence contrary to the point.

That is what the CC rule intends to catch, when it's worded as it is. No resolution of friendly effects on or by non-owned friendlies.

In the case of Konstantine, and Sato's squadrons are you noted, no effect is resolved on or by said ships/squadrons. They're just... there. In both cases, the ship resolving the effect is an owned friendly, laying down the pain on an enemy.

For an effect that alter the state of something, that something has to alter the state at some point, not resolves the effect that alter it.

I fall due to gravity, I am not resolving the gravity effect on me.

Lol, if you look at it through the prism of this game's constraints and lingo, yes, you are.

The effect says you fall, as long as it applies to you you resolve it continously by falling. (edit:Or you resolve it by falling continuously, and when the effect changes or stops, you resolve this happenstance accordingly).

In the context of the game, resolving effects is one of the big ways you alter state. Resolve does not equal its mundane definition here. See the lengthy G8 debate for that.

A says that B must do C

How could B resolves A before A said to B what it should do?

B must do C is A's effect. B does C = B resolves A's effect.

I resolve A's effect so B do C is other way to look it.

If you look at it this way, however, the logical conclusion is that Motti's effect never stops when he dies. Or you get shrodinger ships which die only when you actually check their hull value.

18 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Konstantine....

I blame you.

5 minutes ago, Gowtah said:

If you look at it this way, however, the logical conclusion is that Motti's effect never stops when he dies. Or you get shrodinger ships which die only when you actually check their hull value.

Page 5 of RRG:

Destroyed ships and squadrons are no longer in play. All ship and upgrade cards belonging to destroyed ships are inactive. All squadron cards belonging to destroyed unique squadrons are inactive. Squadrons cards for destroyed non-unique squadrons are inactive when the last non-unique squadron of that type is destroyed.

In the discussed example ( I resolve A's effect so B do C ), Motti gave the hull points already, so his becoming inactive changes nothing. So my phrasing was poor, let's just say Motti is done giving his effect anyway, so his death makes no difference.

Also, if you're going to barge into the discussion quoting rules, you might want to link them to the context. I'm not questioning Motti's FAQ entry.

37 minutes ago, Gowtah said:

In the discussed example ( I resolve A's effect so B do C ), Motti gave the hull points already, so his becoming inactive changes nothing. So my phrasing was poor, let's just say Motti is done giving his effect anyway, so his death makes no difference.

Also, if you're going to barge into the discussion quoting rules, you might want to link them to the context. I'm not questioning Motti's FAQ entry.

The question then becomes "Do you ever resolve Motti?" I know you touched on it already, but you have to make the assertion that there is a timing for Motti to resolve before declaring Motti's effect is a permanent global effect. Even disregarding the FAQ, the RRG spells it out clearly that an upgrade attached to a ship is removed from play and all effects stop. The only example we have of an upgrade being removed and still in the game is the fleet commands, because they specifically say they persist until the end of the round.

Motti is similar to EA and the other upgrades that increase battery armament. Do you ever check for a timing to resolve the upgrade? Or does it just exist and you get the buff?

In regards to Konstantine, I'd agree with you. Konstantine is the source that is slowing down enemy ships, not the 2 ships in question. Now, are the 2 ships in question considered friendly to Konstantine or allies? I don't have my rule book on me so I don't know the exact wording. If they are not friendly, Konstantine cannot trigger.

Also, once you try to break down the rules of this game into equations, you start to break things so I don't think it's a good idea to do that.

Rieekan's effect, once triggered, also lasts until the end of the round, even if Rieekan is removed for maneuvering out of bounds.

As regards Motti, my assertion is that it's not a global effect, but his ships constantly resolve his effect to increase hull (which reconciles nicely with the instadeath on Motti leaving the table, and the current discussion, but I'm not gonna complain about that, am I).

On the similarity with Modification cards, I'd argue you resolve the card effect each time it is required: for example you resolve EA whenever the equipped ship looks at its battery armament for the purpose of assembling the dice pool.

The rule quoted in page 1 will fill you in on Konstantine's case (and Sato's incidentally). I started mixing up ally and friendly because of the translation into my language, but apparently the English booklet makes no mention of allies and says all ships on a side are friendly to each other, but that ships and squadrons cannot resolve effects from a friendly commander who isn't their owner.

27 minutes ago, Gowtah said:

Rieekan's effect, once triggered, also lasts until the end of the round, even if Rieekan is removed for maneuvering out of bounds.

As regards Motti, my assertion is that it's not a global effect, but his ships constantly resolve his effect to increase hull (which reconciles nicely with the instadeath on Motti leaving the table, and the current discussion, but I'm not gonna complain about that, am I).

On the similarity with Modification cards, I'd argue you resolve the card effect each time it is required: for example you resolve EA whenever the equipped ship looks at its battery armament for the purpose of assembling the dice pool.

The rule quoted in page 1 will fill you in on Konstantine's case (and Sato's incidentally). I started mixing up ally and friendly because of the translation into my language, but apparently the English booklet makes no mention of allies and says all ships on a side are friendly to each other, but that ships and squadrons cannot resolve effects from a friendly commander who isn't their owner.

Right, once an effect is triggered, it keeps going. Hence my fleet command example. You can discard the upgrade - no longer in play - and you still get the benefit of the upgrade. Same for Rieekan. He already triggered on a friendly ship so his ability stays until the end of the round.

The thing with Motti and battery armament upgrades is the lack of a timing. My assertion is they are always in effect until destroyed, so you are not constantly resolving the effects. There is no trigger. They just "are" until proven otherwise.

And I'll need to read the CC rule book when I get home.

The lack of timing is kinda irrelevant to the matter. If you consider a card is always in effect, you *are* continuously resolving its effect.

The issue with Motti here is that it doesn't clearly state what's resolving what. But I find it hardpressed to think it's anything else than each of his ships continously checking their own hull points, taking into account whether he is here or not (i.e. resolving his effect).

Which would make it... a global effect applied continuously and locally

I mean, I just look at my ship see that I add 3 hull to an ISD and 1 red for SA. I'm not resolving anything. I just have a 14 hull ISD with a battery armament of 5 red and 4 blue.

To summarize on all this, you can do mental gymnastics over how the card works or you can just simply say 'friendly only applies to ships in my fleet' because I'm pretty sure that's what the designers were going for.