1 minute ago, Jukey said:To summarize on all this, you can do mental gymnastics over how the card works or you can just simply say 'friendly only applies to ships in my fleet' because I'm pretty sure that's what the designers were going for.
Pretty much. I would even personally call it fair to house-rule Dodonna to NOT apply to crits dealt by his allies, though RAW he definitely applies to everything.
8 minutes ago, Jukey said:To summarize on all this, you can do mental gymnastics over how the card works or you can just simply say 'friendly only applies to ships in my fleet' because I'm pretty sure that's what the designers were going for.
To be fair, it's not a sanctioned rules thread until we do some ridiculous mental gymnastics before we wrap around to the main point, which is: Just use your common sense and the game works fine.
Well if we're discussing intent, yeah, the idea was likely that the fleets are considered friendly only so that you can't turn onto an allied commander, and that all other effects are restricted to each respective fleet
The ambiguity with Konstantine is that it effects the enemy ship, not his own. If you consider the enemy ship "triggering/resolving the effect" from being near 2 'friendly ships' then you could argue the effect would work with any ships in the fleet.
As this is a unique case and relies on a stretch in interpretation, without a clear errata from FFG I would side with only K's ships count if a ruling is needed.
Being a campaign tho, unless it's some one-day event with prizes on the line, it's of no concern if your game rules it either way.
7 minutes ago, Daht said:If you consider the enemy ship "triggering/resolving the effect" from being near 2 'friendly ships' then you could argue the effect would work with any ships in the fleet.
I absolutely agree that every group is free to make any house rules they want if their players disagree or dislike the way the rules are written or interpreted.
That said, on this particular point of who is resolving the effect, there just isn't any room for ambiguity at all. As I pointed out on page 1, the card says " you " may change the target's speed. "You" always refers to the ship to which the upgrade card is equipped, so it is definitely Konstantine's flagship that resolves the effect.
Again, not saying anyone is wrong for house-ruling anything at all that they want to at their table. I have house rules myself that I like for CC that are definitely not supported in the rules. I only point this out for the benefit of anyone lurking here trying to find the RAW answer.
Well then, Konstantine certainly owns his flagship, so resolving his effect in relation to any pair of right-sized friendly ships on the board doesn't contradict the All out offensive rule. Or if it does, how?
On 3/12/2017 at 8:28 PM, Ardaedhel said:I absolutely agree that every group is free to make any house rules they want if their players disagree or dislike the way the rules are written or interpreted.
That said, on this particular point of who is resolving the effect, there just isn't any room for ambiguity at all. As I pointed out on page 1, the card says " you " may change the target's speed. "You" always refers to the ship to which the upgrade card is equipped, so it is definitely Konstantine's flagship that resolves the effect.
Again, not saying anyone is wrong for house-ruling anything at all that they want to at their table. I have house rules myself that I like for CC that are definitely not supported in the rules. I only point this out for the benefit of anyone lurking here trying to find the RAW answer.
But you quoted yourself the CC rules say : Ships and Squadrons from a player's fleet count ships and squadrons from other players' fleets on the same team as friendly, with one exception: a commander's "friendly" effect can only be RESOLVED by ships and squadrons of the players fleet
So if "you" always refers to the ship which the upgrade card is equipped, it is *definitely* konstantine's flagship that resolves the effect every time... It's not Vader's star destroyers resolving the effect, it's Vader's friendly star destroyers allowing Konstantine to resolve his own effect.
Similarly any of Sato's ships can trigger when any friendly squadrons from any fleets are distance 1, as it's the Sato-fleet ship resolving the effect.
The CC book says: "Ships and squadrons from a player's fleet count ships and squadrpns from other player's fleets on the same team as friendly, with one exception: a commander's "friendly" effect can only be resolved by ships and squadrons of that player's fleet."
To resolve Konstantine, it must be done by Konstantine's ships.
7 hours ago, Daht said:But you quoted yourself the CC rules say : Ships and Squadrons from a player's fleet count ships and squadrons from other players' fleets on the same team as friendly, with one exception: a commander's "friendly" effect can only be RESOLVED by ships and squadrons of the players fleet
So if "you" always refers to the ship which the upgrade card is equipped, it is *definitely* konstantine's flagship that resolves the effect every time... It's not Vader's star destroyers resolving the effect, it's Vader's friendly star destroyers allowing Konstantine to resolve his own effect.
Similarly any of Sato's ships can trigger when any friendly squadrons from any fleets are distance 1, as it's the Sato-fleet ship resolving the effect.
Yup. I disagree on the intent piece, but that's not the point I'm making here. I'm only pointing out that Konstantine's flagship is the entity resolving the effect.
I disagree that allied ships are intended to enable that effect, but that's a separate piece of the discussion from the one I addressed in your quote. I disagree on that point because it leads down a much longer rabbit hole that brings in Tarkin, Cracken, and Motti into the discussion, because they're not permitting friendly ships to "resolve" any effect either, strictly speaking. At which point, what's the point of having a sweeping rule like that that only applies to half the admirals? Imo, it's just a poorly-written rule, and it's intended that "friendly ships" referenced in an admiral's effect does not include ally ships.
But that's arguing intent, and is squarely in the realm of inferring a connotative meaning, which is why I specifically avoided bringing it up in the post you quoted. All I'm saying there is that Konstantine's flagship is definitely who is resolving that effect.
I have no guilt
2 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:I have no guilt
THE WORST
2 hours ago, Ginkapo said:I have no guilt
hah
Why the FAQ? It didn't address the conflict here.
Just now, ovinomanc3r said:Why the FAQ? It didn't address the conflict here.
This.
Has been Dead.
For a Year and a Half.
Graverobbing does not Become you, Sheepkin!
Just now, Drasnighta said:This.
Has been Dead.
For a Year and a Half.
Graverobbing does not Become you, Sheepkin!
I asked honestly. I will play hangar bay this weekend and needed to check old doubts. I went to the FAQ and felt confused.
I was about to start a new thread but you would complaint about it too. You cannot be satisfied, ever!
5 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:I asked honestly. I will play hangar bay this weekend and needed to check old doubts. I went to the FAQ and felt confused.
I was about to start a new thread but you would complaint about it too. You cannot be satisfied, ever!
I can be satisfied. I'm very easy to please.
For the Corellian Conflict:
FAQ:
All-Out Offensive Special Rules, p.16
This section should include the following paragraph before the Allied Fleets section:
“Assign Targets: After Setup, each player whose commander does not have a “friendly” effect must choose one opponent. The “enemy” effect of that player’s commander only resolves against ships or squadrons controlled by the chosen opponent.”
Dodonna works on one enemy.
However
For a Hangar Bay Tournament? Since those rules don't officially existing in publication format , you cannot make any assumptions or rulings and must ask your TO for clarification
Edited by Drasnighta37 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:I can be satisfied. I'm very easy to please.
For the Corellian Conflict:
FAQ:
All-Out Offensive Special Rules, p.16
This section should include the following paragraph before the Allied Fleets section:
“Assign Targets: After Setup, each player whose commander does not have a “friendly” effect must choose one opponent. The “enemy” effect of that player’s commander only resolves against ships or squadrons controlled by the chosen opponent.”
Dodonna works on one enemy.
However
For a Hangar Bay Tournament? Since those rules don't officially existing in publication format , you cannot make any assumptions or rulings and must ask your TO for clarification
The clarification was AOO rules ?
So Konstantin doesn't need to choose an opponent but does he trigger with any friendly ship or only from his ships?
38 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:The clarification was AOO rules ?
Sure, don’t even read my “however” or whatever.
5 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:Sure, don’t even read my “however” or whatever.
And Konstantin? ?
40 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:So Konstantin doesn't need to choose an opponent but does he trigger with any friendly ship or only from his ships?
Or we still don't know.
1 hour ago, ovinomanc3r said:So Konstantin doesn't need to choose an opponent but does he trigger with any friendly ship or only from his ships?
In lieu of a detailed list, we need to look at actual wording.
So I feel: Why doesn’t he need to choose an opponent?
He doesn’t have a friendly effect, the first statement is “enemy”, so I’d argue he has an ebemybeffect and needs to choisevsineobe to be effected, but then all friendlies could trigger it.
Now, if his effect was “If two or more friendly ships are at distance x of an enemy ship”, then he wouldn’t have to choose as that’s a friendly triggered effect.
Tgats my argument though.
Ask your TO for his
Edited by Drasnighta23 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:And Konstantin? ?
Or we still don't know.
For refference:
Admiral Konstantine:
CC Rule:
"...a commander's "friendly" effect can only be resolved by ships and squadrons of that player's ships"
CC Errata:
“Assign Targets: After Setup, each player whose commander does not have a “friendly” effect must choose one opponent. The “enemy” effect of that player’s commander only resolves against ships or squadrons controlled by the chosen opponent.”
As I understand, Konstantine's effect is an "enemy" effect, so he must choose an enemy fleet to apply his effects to.
1 minute ago, Drasnighta said:Why doesn’t he need to choose an opponent?
the FAQ says:
During an All-Out Offensive, this card’s effect can resolve against enemy ships belonging to any opponent.
That's the reason I think he doesn't have to choose an opponent.
5 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:He doesn’t have a friendly effect, the first statement is “enemy”, so I’d argue he has an ebemybeffect and needs to choisevsineobe to be effected, but then all friendlies could trigger it.
Now, if his effect was “If two or more friendly ships are at distance x of an enemy ship”, then he wouldn’t have to choose as that’s a friendly triggered effect.
That's an interesting approach.
I guess which ships allow to trigger K was not clarified by FFG yet
15 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:Thats my argument though.
Ask your TO for his
Don't worry. I just wanted to know if that was officially answered.
Of course I will ask it to TO.
The FAQ got me confused as it answer something I not even asked. But you pointed the AOO errata I missed and now the FAQ has sense. I could even argue that as Konstantin has a clarification that would make it an exception to the errata it is possible that Konstantin is considered within the group of "non-friendly-stuff" commander and that's the reason it had to be clarified as an exception. But that is just theorizing.
Edited by ovinomanc3r59 minutes ago, Lemmiwinks86 said:For refference:
Admiral Konstantine:
CC Rule:
"...a commander's "friendly" effect can only be resolved by ships and squadrons of that player's ships" CC Errata:
“Assign Targets: After Setup, each player whose commander does not have a “friendly” effect must choose one opponent. The “enemy” effect of that player’s commander only resolves against ships or squadrons controlled by the chosen opponent.”
As I understand, Konstantine's effect is an "enemy" effect, so he must choose an enemy fleet to apply his effects to.
You understand correctly.